Crazy Town
Crazy Town
Why the Polycrisis Is a Statistical Anomaly: The Willful Delusions of the World’s Leading Pseudointellectual
Meet Steven Pinker whose denial of limits increases the likelihood of his worst fear: the end of the Enlightenment. Please share this episode with your friends and start a conversation.
For an entertaining deep dive into the theme of season five (Phalse Prophets), read the definitive peer-reviewed taxonomic analysis from our very own Jason Bradford, PhD.
Sources/Links/Notes:
- David Marchese, "Steven Pinker Thinks Your Sense of Imminent Doom Is Wrong" in The New York Times Magazine (2021).
- The Work that Reconnects Network
- Good Grief Network
- Three relevant past episodes of Crazy Town are episode 39 on the myth of progress, episode 35 on self-domestication, and episode 34 on terror management theory.
- "Steven Pinker: The Mind Reader" in The Guardian (1999).
- Robert Wright, "The 2004 Time 100" in Time Magazine (2004).
- Nick Gillespie, "Steven Pinker Loves the Enlightenment" in Reason Magazine (2018).
- David A. Bell, "Waiting for Steven Pinker’s enlightenment" in The Nation (2018).
- Emile Torres, "Steven Pinker’s fake enlightenment" in Salon (2019).
- Robert Epstein, "Book Review: The Better Angels of Our Nature" in Scientific American (2011).
- Tyler Cowen, "Steven Pinker on Language, Reason, and the Future of Violence," Mercatus Center (2016).
- Mike Freiheit and Lyta Gold, "Comic: Steven Pinker--Certified Grief Counselor" in Current Affairs 2018).
- George Monbiot, "Contrary to Reason" in The Guardian (2018).
- Alex Blasdel, "Pinker's progress: the celebrity scientist at the centre of the culture wars" in The Guardian (2021).
Asher Miller
I'm Asher Miller.
Rob Dietz
I'm Rob Dietz.
Jason Bradford
And I'm Jason Bradford. Welcome to Crazy Town, where the Professor Pangloss Chair of Cherry-Picked Bullshittery has the most prized academic position in the country.
Melody Allison
Hi, this is Crazy Town producer Melody Allison. Thanks for listening. Here in season five we're exploring phalse prophets and the dangerous messages they're so intent on spreading. If you like what you're hearing, please let some friends know about this episode, or the podcast in general. Now on to the show.
Jason Bradford
Guys, I know we're gonna be talking about phalse prophets this season and I'm super excited to get into the the first you know, meat of the season show here. I have to say though, I'm feeling a little bit better about the future and our possibility - It's no wonder you're feeling better. You are? Yeah, I was up past my bedtime last night. Usually that makes me feel worse. Well, yeah, I mean, 10:00pm, okay?
Asher Miller
Yeah, I forgot you're a farmer.
Jason Bradford
Yeah, well, just middle aged. Anyhow, I was asking ChatGPT about everything I've been worried about and -
Asher Miller
What's ChatGPT, again?
Jason Bradford
It's a neural natural language AI.
Rob Dietz
Artificial intelligence guru that tells you everything you need to know.
Asher Miller
Oh right, you just like talk to it?
Jason Bradford
Yeah. It's comforting. And so, you know, I asked it this question, "Do you think human progress will continue in the 21st century?"
Asher Miller
Okay, no wonder you couldn't sleep with a question like that.
Jason Bradford
No, it helped me sleep because it gave me a great answer. It says it is hard to predict the future but it's likely that human progress will continue in the 21st century. We humans have made tremendous progress over the course of history and there is no reason to believe that this progress will come to a halt. In fact, many people believe that the pace of progress will only continue to accelerate in the 21st century due to advances in technology and science. This is so good to hear.
Asher Miller
What did it say?
Rob Dietz
You really didn't need all this lead up to an AI to tell you this. You could have just gone over to Harvard, or something, and talked to Steven Pinker.
Jason Bradford
Well, I bet the AI read all of his stuff. That's the only way it's gonna get that.
Asher Miller
I'm glad you brought up Steven Pinker because actually, he's the guy that we're gonna dive into first for this season.
Rob Dietz
No... I had no idea.
Asher Miller
You're shocked. But just to be clear, that really was from ChatGPT. Yes.
Rob Dietz
GPT, right? GPT - That's like some kind of motocross race or something, right?
Jason Bradford
It doesn't matter. It's the frickin AI everyone's using right now as their best friend.
Asher Miller
Their only friend, really. Okay, but before we get into why we picked Steven Pinker as a phalse prophet, I just want to give our listeners a little background on the guy. Brief personal history, not gonna get a lot of detail, but here's some salient facts about him. He's Canadian.
Jason Bradford
Nice.
Asher Miller
So he always says aboot all the time. He spells things weird.
Jason Bradford
I love Canada. He speaks French probably somewhat.
Rob Dietz
Coolest flag in the world, I think - The Maple Leaf?
Asher Miller
Yeah, so he was born in Montreal in a community of Jewish refugees. And his grandmother's survived a pogrom somewhere in Europe. His grandfather's entire family was killed during the Holocaust. His father grew up pretty poor. Pinker described it as the most oppressive immigrant poverty. But eventually, several of the men of Pinker's dad's generation had kind of been able to grow out of that poverty and had flourishing businesses. Pinker's thought himself early on, he actually called himself like a bakunin sort of anarchist type.
Rob Dietz
Bakunin? What is that? Like a raccoon? I don't know this term.
Asher Miller
Basically, the guy who, actually we've talked about mutual aid before, is sort of behind these concepts of mutual aid and anarchist communities. But in any case, they had this seminal event that happened when he was a teenager, I think he was 15 years old. The police in Montreal went on strike. And in a matter of hours, you know, he later he talked about banks got robbed, people were killed, all the crime that happened. Total chaos in the streets, yeah. And he's like, Yeah, I don't like this anarchic shit at all anymore, man, right?
Jason Bradford
Okay. Well, then, he rises through the ranks of academia. He gets a PhD in experimental psychology from Harvard in 1979.
Rob Dietz
You're pronouncing that wrong. It's Harv-AR-d.
Jason Bradford
Oh, sorry about that. Sorry about that. We can edit that out. He first became famous for his work on linguistics. And he taught at just like unbelievable prestigious places like Harvard. It's Harv-AR-d. Harv-AR-d Stan-ford, and Mit. And then returned to Harv-AR-d. in 2003 as a, get this, full professor.
Rob Dietz
Wow, full. He had a big dinner.
Jason Bradford
Yes. And he had written 16 books, the best known of which include, "The Better Angels of our Nature," "The Blank Slate," and "Enlightenment Now." And so I'm kind of making fun of all this, but admit it, guys, he's smarter than us, he's more well known and famous and richer than us. And he has better hair. Yeah, I mean, have you see pictures of the dude? Ah, unbelieveable.
Rob Dietz
Einsteinian.
Jason Bradford
It's fantastic.
Asher Miller
I've got to say, there's some parallels between Pinker my dad. My dad has this sort of wild Einstein hair too.
Jason Bradford
You could go there. Your hair is fantastic.
Asher Miller
I could go there .But ya know.
Rob Dietz
What was that last book, "Enlightenment Now?" It reminds me of the the Seinfeld thing. Remember, we have to do the opposite section where George Costanza does our opening. Oh, right - Frank Costanza. But his dad, Frank Costanza -- "Serenity now. Enlightenment now." So Pinker probably has a TED Talk where he gets up and does, "Enlightenment now." Well, it's not just that he's a professor and that he went through all this stuff growing up, but he's got some reputation. I mean, in 2004, Time Magazine named him one of the 100 most influential people in the world. Prospect magazine, maybe that's a little less prestigious than Time, but still. . . They got him as #3 on their list of 2013 World Thinkers. You got this list that was compiled from 10,000 votes and hundreds of countries. So I mean, this guy is known all over the world as a public pundit of well, I guess we'll get into what he's pundicising.
Asher Miller
Well, Jason, you're not the only one who likes to play with ChatGPT. How late were you up? Two, three o'clock in the morning. I asked it, and I'm not making this up, I asked ChatGTP, "Who's the most important thinker alive today?" And guess what? Pinker was on the list. Oh my gosh. One of five names on the list that was given to me. So you know the guy's legit.
Rob Dietz
This brings me to understanding just how ignorant I am. Because until we decided to do Pinker for this episode, I knew a little bit about him but I wasn't real familiar with who he was.
Asher Miller
But I bet you were familiar with a lot of his arguments. And that's what I think we should talk about, right? So I'm going to put encapsulate them in as condensed fashion as I possibly can.
Jason Bradford
He's got 16 books, man, how are you going to it justice?
Asher Miller
"Serenity now!"
Jason Bradford
That summarizes it.
Asher Miller
Basically, this what it boils down to: Things have never been better, right? And they're only likely to progress further as long as we hold on to the principles of the Enlightenment, right? So his thesis basically is if you look at human quality of life by all measurements, you know, the violence, wars, life expectancy, absolute poverty, all that stuff, is better than it's ever been in humans
Rob Dietz
Especially in the movies. The violence has gotten awesome.
Asher Miller
CGI Stuff?
Rob Dietz
It's incredible.
Jason Bradford
They can take so many hits nowadays in movies.
Asher Miller
That's what I mean. They don't actually get hit. It's all fake.
Rob Dietz
Look at a John Wick movie compared to something that came out in the 80s or 90s. I mean, he's just shooting 27 people in three seconds. It's incredible.
Asher Miller
I'm sure that this is what Pinker was referring to. And pessimists, I'm sure he would call us pessimists. We're just delusional misanthropes. Because we don't recognize all this.
Rob Dietz
Sometimes people ask me about my co-hosts. So that's what I tell them - They're delusional misanthropes.
Jason Bradford
You fit perfectly with us. Well, okay. So the key, we emphasized this, is the elements of the Enlightenment. He just loves the enlightenment, okay. You've got reason, you've got science, you've got humanism, and you've got this notion of progress. That it's possible for us to continually improve on the world and on our place in it. All those ideas are so important to him. And so he believes that quote, "In the Enlightenment vision, that by understanding our world, that the world is intelligible. That we can understand it. That progress and understanding and therefore progress in rational action are possible, including, pointedly ourselves." A lot of repetition.
Rob Dietz
That's pretty circular, isn't it. Because I believe in this, this is the thing I believe in.
Asher Miller
But there is, I think that the last bit is an important nugget, which is and you know, he's gotten some criticism for this, which is we can use science and reason to actually understand our own behavior well enough that we could actually almost see it, study it, like other things in the physical world having physical properties, right.
Jason Bradford
Yeah. Well, I kind of get that, you know. Yeah. Um, as scientists, I think understanding ourselves is important. And we did a whole season on trying to understand our human psychology and stuff and our biases.
Rob Dietz
Yeah. Well, that's interesting that you bring up biases because one of the other key things about Pinker that I read is that he rejects the notion that we're an irrational species, and that we can continue to achieve this progress or improve on things as long as we govern ourselves appropriately. And that premise really struck me because I've been looking into behavioral economics for a bunch of years. And one of the guiding notions there is to recognize our irrationalities. In fact, Dan Ariely is probably the most famous author professor in that field. And he wrote this great book, "Predictably Irrational" about the ways we could work with our environment, work with our institutions as long as we understand that we as people have these irrational tendencies. That's pretty opposite to what Pinker is . . .
Asher Miller
I think he said that, you know, individually, we can be irrational, but collectively, if we put the right rules in place for our behavior, we can collectively act rationally.
Jason Bradford
Okay. So there's some balance there, maybe. But he really emphasizes this -
Asher Miller
He has aspirational vision in the enlightenment, right? If we just use science and reason and logic and humanism, you know, caring for people, there is no limit, in a sense ,to our ability to progress and to and to flourish as a species. Now, obviously very human centered all this stuff. There's really no mention of the rest of the natural world. Now, I don't think we want to spend a lot of time critiquing a lot of these arguments. There's lots of people who have done that stuff. He's actually had a lot of back and forth with critics over the years. People have criticized him for cherry picking facts, relying on questionable-like single sources to make his arguments like around how many people died from violence, for example. And people have really gone after him for what seems like this sort of tone deafness, or lack of consideration for the fact that there are billions of people that are really suffering in the world right now. So you know, we're not going to spend a lot of time getting into that stuff. I think there are others like George Monbiot, Jason Hickel, who have done a great job of sort of taking him to task for some of these things. We'll put some links into our show notes. And there's actually a great cartoon that we're including as well, which is really great.
Rob Dietz
I was laughing at it when you showed me that.
Asher Miller
Yeah, it just takes you to the extreme, you know, his sort of tone deafness of people suffering.
Rob Dietz
Yeah. Well, I want to say that I agree with the inclination, you know, that Pinker's putting forth this pretty damn positive vision that - I kind of like it. Of course, we want to preserve enlightenment values. Of course, we want to hang on to the great things that humanity has done. That's a really nice headspace to live in.
Jason Bradford
And to work for it as best we can. I agree with that. I mean, it's like, we should try to preserve these things. I get nervous when it looks like we're going to lose them, too.
Rob Dietz
Yeah. And so I like it. But it seems like it's really worth delving into to try to examine like, well, sure, we want to be with you and think that things are going to progress. But can we also look at some of the possibilities of what might prevent that from happening?
Jason Bradford
Yeah, I mean, he really is an advocate of rationality. And I get it, I am too. But he seems to have this sort of rosy tinted glasses view on how people actually interact in the real world. So here's a quote, "We achieve rationality by implementing rules for the community that make us collectively more rational than any of us are individually. People make up for one another's biases by being able to criticize them. People air their disagreements, and the person with the strongest position prevails. People subject their beliefs to empirical tests."
Rob Dietz
I'm thinking he's never lived in an intentional community.
Asher Miller
Or gone online, once - to Twitter.
Rob Dietz
I mean, that's a nice sentiment that the strongest position prevails. But often it's the person who has the most social power prevails, right. It's not, "Well, that sounds like a great argument. Let me just give up the thing I was fighting for."
Asher Miller
Well, and strongest position, you can interpret that in a couple of ways. One is strongest based upon fact-based, science-based, or whatever. Strongest could be the loudest motherfucker in the room, insisting that their position is the right
Jason Bradford
Or the most annoying and persistent and you finally just give up and say, "Just let them have what they want. I'm tired. I gotta go to bed. It's 10."
Rob Dietz
Yeah. Jason's never getting any of his stuff on the agenda because he's asleep before the meeting even gets going.
Asher Miller
Well, and I think there are some scary implications for this idea of having rules, right? Implementing rules for the community. It's like, well, who gets to decide those rules? What are those rules? You could see how somebody could take a position to say, the rational, the fact-based, the scientific-based position is actually that the world is flat, right? And we're going to impose those rules because we have power to do that.
Rob Dietz
So what's wrong with that?
Asher Miller
There was nothing wrong with that. I was using it as a positive example.
Rob Dietz
Okay.
Asher Miller
It's just, to me, like alarm bells go off when I hear about people talking about implementing rules.
Rob Dietz
Right. Never once has a rule backfired, or had unintended consequences.
Asher Miller
Or, people in power create rules to maintain their power.
Jason Bradford
When you think about the human brain and how it evolved in this sort of context of, you know, tribal affiliation, and modestly sized groups, where a lot of what happens is that the rules, quote, unquote, are really about social norms and trust and relationships that are lifelong. And so, it's not nearly as formal, like how people come to agreements, and how people hold other people accountable, and all this. It's like our brain was set up and evolved in a different time and place, and different social structure. So, it almost feels like we've struggled so much because we're kind of a misfit between how we evolved and now these big institutions, these complex questions we are having to deal with. And I don't think he grapples with that at all.
Asher Miller
Yeah. The good news is that he he's got some great solutions for environmental protection I'm going to share with you. So, he argued that instead of renouncing technology and reverting to pre-industrial Industrial Revolution standards of living, we can quote unquote, treat environmental protection as a problem to be solved. How can people live safe, comfortable, and stimulating lives with the least possible pollution and loss of natural habitat? So, that's all we got to do, is just ask that question.
Rob Dietz
Thank God. Somebody has finally said, "Let's treat these environmental things as problems."
Jason Bradford
So like when you're talking about starting some kind of government program or agency that would deal with like the Cuyahoga River is on fire, or. . .
Rob Dietz
Are you talking about an environmental agency that would protect? A Protection Environment Agency?
Jason Bradford
Like maybe environment . . . And then, you know, also, what if you want clean water? Could you pass a law about that?
Rob Dietz
Oh, you're saying like, polluted water is a problem that maybe we could look into that. So you could pass a law?
Jason Bradford
Congress could have an act of some kind about water.
Rob Dietz
This could happen one day? We could get like a Water Act?
Asher Miller
Well, what about air?
Jason Bradford
Well, that's the other thing. Like maybe you're coughing a lot and there's pollution and something like that. And there are smokestacks or there's tailpipes. So, you could do something about dirty air. And you could try to clean the air.
Asher Miller
My mind is blown, guys.
Rob Dietz
It's open to a whole new perspective.
Jason Bradford
I've never considered this before. There's a biodiversity crisis, too. So you could worry about endangered species and maybe act upon that.
Rob Dietz
Like, you could pass an act?
Jason Bradford
You could.
Rob Dietz
An Endangered Species Act?
Jason Bradford
I bet you could. I bet you could do that. That's crazy. Wow.
Asher Miller
So the point here, obviously, is, dude, yeah, people have been working on trying to solve environmental problems for a long time.
Jason Bradford
We can treat them as a problem to be solved!
Rob Dietz
Did we belabor that point well enough for everyone.
Jason Bradford
Let's listen to Pinker. He's top thinker of the world - one of the top 5.
Rob Dietz
Here's how you know that he's a top thinker. My favorite is that according to Pinker, when you want to talk about the economy, we need to decouple productivity from resources. You know, everything's got to be dense. You get more bang for the buck. And he's all about dematerialization. You know, use technology, of course. To do more with less. Just as you know, we've been doing
Asher Miller
Well post industrial farming - It's more sustainable because it requires less farmland, right?
Jason Bradford
I'm going to talk to my wife about dinner tonight. I think she expects tacos, but I'm going to dematerialize them and make them a lot less dense, calorically.
Asher Miller
They need to be more dense.
Rob Dietz
Right.
Asher Miller
They need to be more dense.
Rob Dietz
Dense with information.
Jason Bradford
It's the information of the taco. I'm going to show or recipe. I'm going to say, "Look, this is taco information. Is this dense enough for you?" Yeah, she'll probably clobber me with something dense.
Rob Dietz
Well, it's crazy because he has this other thing - Here's a quote: He says, "It's a fallacy to think that people need resources in the first place. They need ways of growing food, moving around, lighting their homes, displaying information, and other sources of well being. They satisfy these needs," Here we go Jason, with your stuff. "They satisfied these needs with idea. With recipes, formulas, techniques, blueprints, and algorithms for manipulating the physical world to give them what they want. The human mind, with its recursive combinatorial power - " Those are some Harvard words out there - "can explore an infinite space of ideas and is not limited by the quantity of a particular kind of stuff on the ground."
Jason Bradford
Boy, Kristen is gonna be dreaming of tacos. I mean, because she won't have any in the physical space, but I'll show her recipes. There'll be lots of ideas of tacos. And when she goes to sleep, there'll be an infinite combinatorial mess of tacos.
Rob Dietz
Recursive. Don't forget the recursive part.
Jason Bradford
Recursive tacos in her head. And she will be mad at me and she will probably kick me in the middle of the night and elbow me.
Rob Dietz
No, she will love you for giving her such a dense, wonderful food experience. Thanks, Stephen, for that.
Asher Miller
People don't need resources. They just need ways of . . .
Rob Dietz
Yeah, I love that. Let's just substitute the word, "ways" for resources and suddenly it's okay.
Jason Bradford
There's formulas and blueprints and algorithms.
Rob Dietz
I've seen this argument so often in economics.
Asher Miller
This is mainstream economics, actually.
Jason Bradford
This is actually mainstream economics.
Rob Dietz
It drives me nuts. Like I get it. Of course, oil is just a greasy liquid if we don't understand how to use it, we don't have some recipe for making it work. But it doesn't matter if you have that recipe and you don't have the goddamn oil. You need them both. Stop pretending like we don't have gifts from nature.
Asher Miller
I mean, just think about that. It is a fallacy to think that people need resources in the first place. Can we just stop right there, dude? Like how does anybody take someone seriously when they say that?
Jason Bradford
How does anything take him seriously? I don't understand. The dude fucking teaches at Harvard, MIT, Stanford.
Rob Dietz
Does one of those Harvard students raise their hand and say, "What did you eat for breakfast this morning, Professor?" What does he say? "Well, it's a fallacy to think that it was food."
Jason Bradford
It was the idea of food.
Rob Dietz
I have an excellent recipe.
Jason Bradford
I thought about Cheerios.
Asher Miller
The guy has got had a lot of you know, criticism over the years.
Jason Bradford
How's he take it? How's he take it?
Asher Miller
We're not the first one to pick on him. Including people you know, who pushed back on his rosy view of progress and kind of his spin on optimism. He has not taken it well.
Jason Bradford
He hasn't taken it well - He's got an ego, doesn't he?
Asher Miller
Yeah, I mean, I don't - Look, I was struck by reading this interview with him where the guy went to visit him in his house in Cape Cod and, you know, walks in his house and describes what he sees. And of course, the man has done very well for himself, sold a lot of books, you know?
Jason Bradford
Yeah, 16.
Asher Miller
Nice, fancy house with lots of photos of himself, you know. And paintings of himself on the wall.
Jason Bradford
Oh, that's a tell, isn't it?
Rob Dietz
It's sort of like our studio here where we've just plastered the walls with pictures of ourselves.
Jason Bradford
There's a picture of me and my two boys and my wife.
Asher Miller
Yeah, but no, I want a picture me, okay? Not you.
Jason Bradford
All right. We've gotta get one. We've gotta get one.
Rob Dietz
One?
Asher Miller
I've got a few in my backpack to you.
Jason Bradford
Thank you.
Rob Dietz
All right, Let's stop picking on the man.
Asher Miller
No, I'm gonna keep picking on him, and then we'll get back to the to the point. So you asked how has he taken criticism? Well, he characterizes the environmental movement as ecopessimism. So I think we're slowly working our way up on that list. You know, we're talking about the Top 5 Thinkers in the world? Top 5 Ecopessimists? If we work hard at this, guys. You might get there.
Jason Bradford
We might get there.
Asher Miller
He describes these ecopessimists as being laced with misanthropy, including an indifference to starvation, and indulgence, and ghoulish fantasies of a depopulated planet, and Nazi like comparison of human beings to vermin, pathogens, and cancer.
Rob Dietz
That's dropping the nuclear bomb, right? Every environmentalist is a Nazi.
Asher Miller
Yeah, it's like Godwin's Law. If you don't like the criticism that you're getting, you just call them a Nazi.
Rob Dietz
That's really disappointing. I mean, ecopessimism, okay. I mean, that term kind of could reign. There's a lot of doom-and-gloomers in the environmental movement. But it's precisely because you're worried about things like starvation, or things like loss of topsoil, or an unlivable climate, that you try to fight these issues. It's not because you're in favor of it.
Jason Bradford
Yeah. It's bizarre.
Asher Miller
It's love. It's loving what we see in the world - Not just other human beings. Other creatures that we share this planet with, right? Is he calling us misanthropes as we're concerned?
Jason Bradford
It's so absurd, yeah. It's really sad. That guy kind of ends up being a little pathetic at this point.
Rob Dietz
But he proves his point. He takes it even further and argues that apocalyptic predictions have failed to come true over and over and over again. And that means that quote, "Humanity has miraculously escaped from certain death again, and again, like a Hollywood action hero, or there's a fundamental flaw and ecopessimist thinking." I don't know what apocalyptic predictions he's talking about. But certainly we're having problems environmentally. I mean, just looking at the data. I mean, he claims to be a data guy and wants to, you know, look at that for charting the progress that we're making. Well, yeah, humanity's made a lot of progress, but clearly coming at the cost of some environmental degradation.
Asher Miller
This is very standard kind of stuff. The arguments we always have from people who try to argue that there aren't limits, you know, they say, "Well, Malthus was wrong." You know, it's the same thing. Because this one person, you straw man, cherry pick one thing, and say they didn't get exactly the timing right, or whatever it was. It dismisses the entire argument. These things are no longer concerns. So just because, yeah, who knows what apocalyptic predictions he's talking about. The end of the world completely? Just because that didn't happen, therefore, all these concerns aren't valid. It's a pretty weak intellectual argument I gotta say. I'm going to share something that really, really blew my mind, which was I talked about that interview that this guy, David Marchese, from New York Times did with him where he saw the photos of him in his house. And Marchese asked him a question. He said, "I don't think I'm alone in feeling that rising authoritarianism, the pandemic, and the climate crisis, among other things are signs that we're going to hell in a handbasket. Is that irrational of me? And this was Pinker's response: He said, "It is not irrational to identify genuine threats or well being." Good. "It is irrational to interpret a number of crises occurring at the same time as signs that we're doomed. It's a statistical phenomenon that when events are randomly sprinkled in time, they cluster. That sounds paradoxical, but unless you have a non-random process that spaced them apart, we're gonna have a crisis every six months, but we're never gonna have two crisises in a month. Events cluster. That's what random events will do, right?" So it's like, this is just random, right?" We've got California on fire or then, flooded. You know, we've got rising inequality. We've got people marching on the Capitol. We've got hunger. We've got wars.
Jason Bradford
Yeah, we got ocean acidification . . .
Asher Miller
Biodiversity loss.
Rob Dietz
I wonder if you were - Let's say you were in in World War II and your city is being attacked and a bomb fell on your city and the soldiers came through firing at you. Would that be random statistical clustering or could they be related somehow?
Jason Bradford
What's funny is he dismisses like environmental quote, unquote prediction to disaster. But what's interesting, is if you look at like one of the most famous set of scenarios, the limits to growth, and you have that lens on what happens to systems when they start to break down, what do you get? You get the polycrisis. You get a whole bunch of stresses that build up and things start breaking here and there and snapping and becoming unstable. You know, things that were once more stable become chaotic in their dynamics, etc, etc. Systems at the brink end up having a bunch of bad things happen at once
Asher Miller
And life is systems. I mean, clearly the guy is no ecologist, right? So I mean, there are interactions that happen, right? There are causal effects. There are relationships between things. These are not random events that just,. "Oh we got bad luck this century."
Jason Bradford
"Those nine planetary boundaries happen to be broken all at once. Shit. How did that happen? How did we break all nine back to back?"
Asher Miller
What a weird coincidence.
Jason Bradford
The weirdest coincidence. Overshoot leads to breaking all these boundaries at the same fucking time.
Rob Dietz
Put your statistical anomalies away and calm down, okay?
Asher Miller
Not just ecopessimism.
Jason Bradford
Those nine boundaries will just shrink back together.
Rob Dietz
I know we're gonna get into this but, god, this drives me nuts. The failure to attribute our progress to anything other than our own brilliant mind. Like it didn't come at the price of anything in nature.
Jason Bradford
Okay, so there's something very special about this season is that I really worked hard to develop a taxonomy, the first ever taxonomy of the phalse prophets species, the various species of phalse prophets. And I'm not saying -
Asher Miller
It's seminal work.
Jason Bradford
It's seminal work because there's never been a taxonomic treat -
Rob Dietz
You keep using that word. I'm not sure you know what it means.
Jason Bradford
But I'm very excited about it. And it hasn't been quite published yet. It'll get online.
Asher Miller
It's going through peer review right now.
Jason Bradford
It's going through the peer review process. By the time the show is released, hopefully, it'll be out there for everyone to run through the taxonomy and part of the taxonomic treatment is a dichotomous key.
Rob Dietz
I remember doing those. Like you want to identify plants and it asks you two question. It's like a choose your own adventure.
Jason Bradford
Are the leaves green or red?
Asher Miller
It's like the mushroom book that we were using recently to try and identify the mushroom species.
Jason Bradford
Yeah, exactly. So a dichotomous key just asks you a series of questions. And it's like, is it this or this, and then goes different directions, and you eventually come out and you know what it is. So I Pinker through this, and it turns out that he has traits of three different species. Now you say how is that possible? Well, this often happens, there are there are hybrid swans out there of phalse prophets.
Rob Dietz
And Pinker may be special among the phalse prophets.
Asher Miller
Well, we're gonna see. We'll go through others and see what traits they have.
Jason Bradford
Okay, so let me go through the three species that has bred him. So he's obviously a Man Schiller. And a Man Schiller is a high status professional, well paid to gaslight you into believing the shit cakes you are seeing everywhere are actually made of chocolate. And it does include a number of recognized subspecies that are easily distinguished by the profession that we'll get into, you know. But anyway, he's definitely a Man Schiller. He also though, is a Double Downer. And this is a person who after reviewing all -
Asher Miller
We're debbie downers. He's a Double Downer.
Jason Bradford
Right, yeah - A person who after reviewing all the evidence that we are on a completely unsustainable path, decides the best and only action is to do much more of what has gotten us into this mess. And so, they bum you out in two ways. It's a double entendre. They bum you out when they talk to you about what's wrong, but then they also bum you out because they have nothing useful to say about it, you know. So he's a bit of a double downer. And then, he also has elements of what are called Industrial Breatharians. And so -
Rob Dietz
So he made tacos.
Jason Bradford
Yeah, exactly. You know Breatharianism is?
Rob Dietz
Yeah, that's where you're not a vegetarian, you're not an omnivore, you can survive by eating only the air.
Jason Bradford
Sunshine basically. You're almost like a plant, I guess. You can breathe and you need sunshine. If you don't have light, you die. Okay?
Asher Miller
So he's like an anti-vampire?
Jason Bradford
So he's got elements of all three of those. But they envision a richer non-molecular American Airlines, Archer Daniel Midlands, and Bed Bath and Beyond. Yes.
Asher Miller
Okay.
Rob Dietz
Non-molecular Bed Bath and Beyond? What do they sell, dreams?
Asher Miller
That's the beyond part. It's all beyond. They just got rid of the bed and the bath part.
Jason Bradford
Yeah. So anyways, each one of our shows will go through the taxonomic key for our guests.
Asher Miller
Okay, so here we are, giving this guy a bit of a hard time.
Jason Bradford
Little bit.
Asher Miller
Getting a little pissed off at some of the stuff that he says.
Rob Dietz
Little bit. I'm so angry.
Asher Miller
You know, adding a veneer of sort of scientific botanistic treatment, you know, to him as you just did. But the truth is, he's a human being, right? And I actually feel a little bit of compassion for him. A little bit.
Jason Bradford
Yeah, me too. Me too.
Asher Miller
And sadness for him because it feels like a bit of this sort of desperate form of denialism wrapped in this cloak of optimism that he's putting out into the world. And it's like hiding this this deep fear that I think sits in the guy. Here I am, I mean, I'm psychoanalyzing the dude. I've never met him. I'm not a psychologist.
Jason Bradford
He's so prolific and you can kind of see through it all. It ends up you can see what kind of angst he has, and pain, and fear.
Rob Dietz
Well, I remember going down that path, like so wanting to be a techno-optimist and you know, we're going to overcome all this. And then, watching the trends and looking at the reality and reading and studying and kind of, well, I don't think I can be in that space because it's not commensurate with reality.
Asher Miller
Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna do away with my empathy for a second and go back to what you were talking about, you know. You're talking about him being a Man Schiller. I can understand the desire, maybe we want to talk a little bit more about that in a second, kind of what is what's driving maybe this belief system. But the truth of the matter is, the guy is, he's not original thinker. He cherry picks facts. He can act incredibly smug in his interactions. And he supports a predominant view of elites. You know, there's a writer named Pankaj Mishra, who called, I love this, called Pinker, "A member of the intellectual service class, which shuffles around just to find the positions and soothing the moral sensitivities of societies winners." And that's the thing is his response to critics around the growing inequality, he's like, "Well, that's not really an issue." Like, so what that some of these guys are becoming billionaires and hundred billionaires, or whatever. You know, what matters is your absolute wealth, which, by the way, is not true in terms of human behavior. Relative status is actually an incredibly important driver of people's sense of well being. But you know, that's just carrying water for these motherfuckers. And so there's not only like intellectual laziness in some ways, there's not a lot of original thinking here, but he's just a fucking bootlicker.
Jason Bradford
Yeah, really. A lot of our big academic institutions, that's what they end up hiring people to do. It's kind of scary. I mean, there's plenty of great people who are original thinkers, and that because they have tenure and freedom of thought, they say some pretty amazing things and are critics. But, a good part of the academy is is doing the man schilling job.
Rob Dietz
Well, I worry that the three of us will come across as kind of holier than thou and obnoxious for piling on somebody. So let me go back for just a minute to the empathy part of this. There was that interview you had talked about with David Marchese. Marchese asked him if there was anything that Pinker thought he was irrational about himself. And I really liked Pinker's answer. He said, "Yeah, I'm irrational about bike riding and eating meat." So first of all, eating meat. We know he can get rid of that because he can just eat air.
Jason Bradford
Right. The idea of meat. Just smell something.
Rob Dietz
But I love that he thinks he's irrational about riding bikes. I think that's the most rational thing he does. We love bikes. That's the most efficient form of transportation humans have ever invented from a energy input to distance gained. It's totally rational there.
Asher Miller
But it is pretty telling that he could only spot those two things as signs that he's irrational.
Rob Dietz
I have so many irrationalities. I mean, that would be the rest of our season if I just listed them.
Jason Bradford
You know, there was this thing where at the beginning you were talking about, Asher. His history where he saw the cops basically on strike and then mayhem in the streets of Montreal. And it sort of made him fear the darker side of human nature. And I think that's a lot of what's going on is if the enlightenment, you know, if there are limits to growth, if progress doesn't continue, then it breaks it down into this horrible Hobbesian, you know, fight for individuals and it really doesn't work that well. I think he's just scared of this. He's got this death anxiety in a sense. And as much as he talks about evolutionary psychology, I also think he has a narrow view of human nature where there's plenty of cooperativeness in humans. And we had some good episodes on that a couple of seasons back. We had one on self domestication, about how we're kind of a "You" social species, and there's a lot of our evolutionary history that is about us getting together and cooperating. But again, it's a scale thing. It's hard to have us be like that in this modern world where we live in groups of, you know, millions, and there's a lot of strangers. So we're kind of a mismatch here. And that's a problem, obviously. And then we had a whole episode on sort of terror management theory. So I see that kind of the hurt person there. But also, he just ends up acting like a jackass a lot which pisses you off.
Asher Miller
Well yeah, I mean, and he's referred to himself as a Hobbesian. For an optimist, somebody who's basically known for espousing optimism. For giving people a sense of hope and that, "Look at all the progress that we've made!" Which, we would agree if you look at it, you know. I mean, yes, he cherry picks data but there's a lot of data that shows that the material conditions for humans has grown. I like modern medicine. It's a great fucking thing.
Jason Bradford
I love a lot of it. I know. I find myself nodding with a lot of his stuff and then just going, "Why don't you just shut up about this other stuff in your ignorance about what created these material conditions?" That's what pisses me off.
Asher Miller
But that's the thing. There's this weird gap between putting out this this picture, this optimistic vision, when kind of at the heart of it, he doesn't actually trust humans on some level.
Jason Bradford
No, he doesn't. Serenity now!
Rob Dietz
But we've discussed this, right? Like high energy modernity was the term that you found from somebody.
Jason Bradford
Thomas Love.
Rob Dietz
Yeah, Tom Love. And it's like, we appreciate it. Amazing gratitude for modern dentistry and for -
Jason Bradford
Lidocaine frickin' rocks. So does valium.
Rob Dietz
It's winter and we're sitting in a nice warm room.
Jason Bradford
It's incredible.
Asher Miller
Lights on and we've got electricity and power to our mics.
Rob Dietz
Have the gratitude, just don't misattribute where it came from.
Asher Miller
Well, that's the thing is he is divorced from the physical realities that created these. And I think the big takeaway here, the big key here is that, for me - and a big part of the reason I wanted to talk about Pinker is this - Which is, let's say we share, as values, a strong desire to maintain the gains of the Enlightenment.
Jason Bradford
Yeah, I do. I don't want to burn witches anymore.
Asher Miller
Scientific advancement, our capacity to try to understand the world, to continue to evolve our thinking, to try to organize ourselves in a way where - he talked about humanistic tendencies as well, right? I think that there are a lot of common values there. The problem is that he has taken the human being, and divorced the human being from the world. So not recognizing that the gains that have been made in recent centuries have been made on the back of ancient sunlight, burning ancient sunlight, ancient energy that gave us this incredible surplus and bounty. And that's given us the capacity to provide rights for more people, to provide education for more people, to improve quality of life, all these things. Not equitably distributed. With an economic system that's fucked up. And, you know, exploitation, that's probably going to send us over a cliff. Okay? And if we want to hold on to those things, we need to recognize that they were done, in a sense, on the sort of, not idealized conditions, but with a big fucking tailwind behind us. When that wind stops or in fact, we have a headwind, how do we work on maintaining those things when we are challenged. You know, when we're challenged in ways we haven't been challenged before. Guys like this scare me because while they're espousing all these values and the things that they want to hold on to, their solution for holding on to them is to go, "Nananana" about limits. Let's look at the limits so we can actually face what we need to face. So we can try to ensure that these things are around. We're not the fucking misanthropes. You're a misanthrope because you're in denial.
Jason Bradford
Yeah, exactly.
Rob Dietz
I'm not the misanthrope. You're the misanthrope!
Jason Bradford
I like that.
Rob Dietz
Okay, this is a good segue into a recurring feature that we're doing. This is the insufferability index, or as you've been trying to rename it, the douchebag coefficient. This is a little riff where we we kind of give a zero to 10 score, based on how much would we want to hang out with this person and listen to the ideas that they have. And you know, like a Nelson Mandela would be really low on insufferability. Like hey, you'd really want him to hang out in here. And Tucker Carlson would be really high on the scale. You'd want to punch him in the face within the first 25 seconds. So you know, it's kind of like, we want to think about the intentions of the person. Are they malevolent or power hungry? Are they selfish? You want to think about their personality. Maybe they could be a fun guy to get a beer with but you know, maybe they're just really mean. We want to think about their ideas. How far off the deep end are they? And then maybe you just have your own bias for this person. You like his hair, or whatever. So where are you guys on Steven Pinker.
Asher Miller
Well, after the little rant I went on, pretty high on the list there. I don't know, man. I mean, so you said Tucker Carlson is like a nine.
Rob Dietz
I mean, in my book, he'd probably be a 10. I really don't enjoy . . .
Asher Miller
Yeah, like Tucker Carlson, I probably wouldn't even bother trying to have a conversation with the dude.
Rob Dietz
Outside of a class in martial arts I've never punched anybody in my life. But, I look at him as being really punchable.
Asher Miller
Well, that's the other thing with Tucker Carlson is like, there's no point in having conversation with the dude. I don't think it'd be. . . So Pinker, I would say it might be interesting to like, talk to the guy a little bit. Like I wouldn't just kick him in the nuts and walk away. Right?
Rob Dietz
Well, I'm glad. I'm glad you wouldn't
Asher Miller
So I don't know. But then again, the dude has fucking paintings of himself in his house.
Jason Bradford
I know. So that's where you can look at his personality. So the score that we've devised, there's three things. You look at intentions, personality, and ideas. Okay? You just add it. I added it up. I got to - I got a five.
Asher Miller
A 5? Huh.
Jason Bradford
Okay? Pinker is a 5 to me. Okay, he's middle of the road douchebag.
Rob Dietz
You were able to run over it with your car and not hit the tires.
Asher Miller
Do you know how upset all of these guys are going to be? Not to score high. To score like middle. Because the last thing they want to be is mediocre. Any of these guys.
Jason Bradford
He's a mediocre douchebag.
Asher Miller
So Pinker is probably really upset. I mean he'd probably prefer me saying he's a 7 to you saying he's a 5.
Rob Dietz
I like that he's written all these books and he's a good writer I could talk to him about that. I'm kind of with you, Jason. I think maybe I'd give him like a six after listening to your rant, Asher.
Jason Bradford
I mean, you can give him an extra one because, you know, he sounds like an asshole sometimes.
Rob Dietz
We gotta hear from Asher. Where are you on this?
Asher Miller
6.5.
Jason Bradford
Alright.
Rob Dietz
That's surprising after that. I can't wait to hear your rant on a 10.
Asher Miller
It's partly because of trying to leave some space for some of our douchebags who are coming down the pike.
Jason Bradford
Alright. Well congratulations, Pinker. You're just middle of the road.
Melody Allison
Other podcasts ask for a lot of stuff - Buy their merch, join their Patreon, donate your left kidney. No, we're just asking you to share the show. If you're like me and you find it funny and thought provoking, then please tell three friends, hit that share button, and get some other people joining us in Crazy Town.
George Costanza
Every decision I've ever made in my entire life has been wrong. My life is the complete opposite of everything I want it to be. If every instinct you have is wrong, then the opposite would have to be right.
Asher Miller
Okay, so we're talking doing the opposite of what Pinker has laid out. We talked about how it sort of seemed like there was this willful, desperate optimism that was being put out there that was, in a sense, maybe a form of denial of fears. And so, I would just suggest that we all have to start by in a sense facing our fears, contending with the grief that we might have. There's lots of different ways that people do that, practice meditation, get out in nature. There are also resources that are out there for people to do this and to do it collectively and not alone. Especially in the context of thinking about the fears that we have about the climate crisis and the other issues that we're facing. So I would just suggest, folks, check out Joanna Macy's, "The Work that Reconnects," for example. Or, something called, "The Good Grief Network," which is an online community for folks with resources.
Rob Dietz
It was started by Charlie Brown. Good grief.
Jason Bradford
And that's part of the reason why we have this show. Because we also understand that as social creatures, we have to share our grief and concern. And it actually causes quite a bit of relief when we do.
Asher Miller
Yeah, and maybe clarity of thinking.
Rob Dietz
Yeah. Well, you just mentioned Joanna Macy. I like the idea as we go through the season of phalse prophets, can we find somebody who's got a better message, sort of the opposite of them? And there's a guy we work with, I think you guys know pretty well, Richard Heinberg?
Jason Bradford
Oh, yeah, heard of him. How many books does he got? He got 16?
Rob Dietz
He's close. I think he's 14 maybe at this point.
Asher Miller
Yeah, and I don't think he has any photos or paintings of himself in his own house.
Rob Dietz
Sculptures are all over the place though.
Jason Bradford
He doesn't have as much hair.
Rob Dietz
But he sees the material basis, which, of course, mostly fossil fueled, as a reason for why the Enlightenment values were able to be spread, and why we've had this technological progress. So it's really worth reading his work to understand it's not just the mind, it's not just our recipes, it's the gifts that we've received. And his most recent book which is called, "Power," it explores cooperation and social power, and he's got a really nuanced view on why it is that we behave the way we do. And so I would just like to point people to Richard as kind of a, I don't think he sets out to be an anti-Pinker, but his message is just much more in line with physical reality, ecology, a much broader brush than what Pinker provides.
Jason Bradford
Yeah. And a lot of what you're going to hear from folks like Pinker is, technology solution, technology solution. We've got to double down on high tech. Over and over again. It's real drumbeat. And, of course, a lot of people that care about climate are into this camp. And I just think, be careful. We do a lot on this show to educate people about the limitations to a lot of what's being proposed. And so be skeptical of high-tech and especially complex systems for management of getting things through. We really have, in many cases limited scope to manage this complexity, which is what you learn from people like Joseph Tainter, etc. And so, especially as energy surplus, we've been relying on declines. That gets just more and more difficult to do. And we're going to cover this, and Pinker is not the only guy that we're going to talk about the season that falls into this. So we'll cover this in more detail.
Rob Dietz
But an amazing opportunity here to do as I do instead of do the opposite. Get out there and ride your bike, like Pinker.
Asher Miller
And the last thing I guess I would say is that, let's hold on to the same ideals. We share with Pinker, you know, many values and ideals. I think a lot of our listeners probably share them as well. And so it's not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What a weird expression.
Jason Bradford
Yeah, let's not do that, okay.
Rob Dietz
Never even came close to once doing that when my kids were babies.
Asher Miller
Yeah, how do you even do that?
Jason Bradford
Well, in the olden days, everyone would bathe prior to the baby and the baby with the last one in the family to bathe.
Asher Miller
No I get it. But like, literally physically, how are you like actually throwing the baby out with the bathwater? Like, how do you not notice that the baby's in there with the bathwater.
Jason Bradford
That'd be pretty bad. It means the baby's probably like at the bottom, and you can't even see the baby.
Rob Dietz
This is the worst digression we've ever been on.
Jason Bradford
Strange expression. I agree. It is a strange expression.
Asher Miller
In any case, I don't - Shit, Melody, can you edit that? Too late. So the point is, if we're worried about how to maintain those, and we see that we've got a reckoning coming, or we have to, like I was saying before, we don't have the wind at our back, we have the wind in our faces. We need to engage other people in this conversation, because I bet you, it might be hard to have a conversation with people, helping them try to understand the complexity of all of these systems that are breaking down right now. And maybe they want to be in sort of denial about it too. But just cracking open the door for them to say, you care about these things, right? What are the things that we care about collectively together? How do we make sure that we can maintain those? Let's just say if I'm right, or there's a 10% chance that I'm right, and that we're going to be dealing with all kinds of limitations and issues in the future, how do we hold on to those things? Because if we're not having those conversations now, we're gonna be in a world of hurt later. So please engage other people in that conversation as well.
Melody Allison
That's our show. Thanks for listening. If you like what you heard, and you want others to consider these issues, then please share Crazy Town with your friends, hit that share button in your podcast app, or just tell them face to face. Maybe you can start some much-needed conversations and do some things together to get us out of Crazy Town. Thanks again for listening and sharing.
Jason Bradford
Agriculture is widely considered the most destructive activity on the planet. And by 2050, with another couple billion human mouths to feed. Many are seeking ways to minimize the footprint of farming and their personal demands on our precious Earth. With all this in mind, I was truly astounded to receive a copy of the newest edition of, The Breatharians Cookbook." This pseudo culinary classic has been updated with the latest ideas on how to dematerialize the food system. One where recipes are enough and quote, unquote food isn't needed at all. Rob, Asher, I know you guys have been trying out The Breatharians Cookbook this week, and you share maybe your favorite food concept and how you feel?
Rob Dietz
Yeah, I gotta say I love the classic chocolate chip cookies. Imagining the smell of them cooking in my oven, their buttery texture, that outer crunch with ooey, gooey melted chocolate and no inconvenience of having to add ingredients. I was just - it's so frickin' mouthwatering with nothing in my actual mouth.
Asher Miller
I was going more savory, you know. I kept coming back again and again to the pulled pork sandwiches. Which, you know, I get to eat guilt-free as a Jew. And I'm down 20 pounds this week. It's pretty amazing.
Jason Bradford
Hey, thanks, guys. Those are some powerful testimonials. So I encourage listeners to order their copy today. We're talking about The Breatharians Cookbook, where sustainability is imagined.
