Bonus: Going Wild with Rae Wynn-Grant

Wildlife ecologist and communicator extraordinaire Rae Wynn-Grant visits Crazy Town to talk human-wildlife interactions, the social side of environmentalism, diversity and equity in the sciences, and ideas for young people (don't worry if you're older—the ideas apply to you, too). Rae is the host of the PBS Nature podcast "Going Wild" and will soon be appearing as the cohost of Wild Kingdom, a reboot of the ultra-classic tv nature show. Listen to the end of the episode to catch Rae’s thoughts on the most important stories people need to hear (and tell) to make a transition to sustainable and just society.

 Notes and Resources:

• Rae’s website
• The podcast: Going Wild with Dr. Rae Wynn-Grant
• Rae discussed how Ayana Elizabeth Johnson influenced her.
• Rae also highlighted the work of Leah Thomas on intersectional environmentalism.
• Doris Duke Conservation Scholars Program
• National Geographic HBCU Media Scholarship
• Article about the reboot of the Wild Kingdom television series

Transcript

Rob
Hi, this is Rob. We've got a special episode of Crazy Town with Dr. Rae Wynn Grant. Rae is a wildlife ecologist who studies interactions between humans and animals, especially large mammal carnivores, kind of after my own heart on that one. She has worked with grizzly bears in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem, lions in Kenya and Tanzania, and black bears in North America's Great Basin. She's the host of the PBS Nature podcast, “Going Wild with Dr. Rae Wynn Grant.” Rae, welcome to Crazy Town. 

Rae
Thank you. Oh my gosh. I feel like I live in Crazy Town.

Rob
Yeah, I know.

Rae
It's appropriate for me to be here.

Rob
That's kind of a theme of our show -- we're all in Crazy Town now. But hey, one of the other recurring themes, and also in your podcast, Going Wild, is the critical importance of connecting, or maybe even reconnecting -- I should say, with nature, especially if we as humans are going to figure out how to live sustainably on this home that we call earth. I was wondering if you can talk about what connecting with nature has meant to you, how you've gone about it, and maybe even how it's changed your, your career, and your entire life.

Rae
Oh, I am happy to talk about this. And one reason is because. In terms of my colleagues, in terms of the other folks I work with in the environmental science space, I have a pretty non-traditional journey towards getting here, and that's because I grew up quite urban, so growing up I lived in big cities, had parents that exposed me to lots of things, but not necessarily time in nature.
So I didn't grow up camping or hiking or, you know, fishing or hunting or any of those things. Didn't visit national parks with my family, you know, nothing like that. So there wasn't a lot of outdoor recreation and I really got my exposure to nature through watching television. So, like, nature shows on TV were my jam, they were my all-time favorite thing.

I used to tell people when I was a kid, I want to be a nature show host when I grow up. And I was saying that, like, kind of in a vacuum, you know, as a kid I wasn't also saying, hey, and I want to go to Yosemite, or I want to go hike this tall mountain, or go to this jungle. I was saying, “I want to be a nature show host.”

So, in many ways, I kind of thought, the only people I know in my inner-city upbringing that spend time in nature are those British and Australian guys on TV, that I have literally never met anyone else that spends time in nature. So, I didn't have this exposure and yet I had a very rich, very wonderful urban upbringing that I would not trade for anything.

So I don't feel that I missed out by growing up urban. And when I was 20 years old, I was in college and I was an environmental science major because I thought to myself, this will help me be a nature show host one day. And I decided to study abroad and try out this nature thing. And I did a study abroad program that took me to southern Kenya, to the bush of southern Kenya.
And it was a wildlife management trip. And it was on that study abroad program that I took my first hike and I pitched my first tent and I saw my first wild animal ever. I mean, technically, I guess I had seen, you know, pigeons and squirrels and whatnot. But I saw my first wild animal and that was the moment that helped solidify to me: “Oh, I want to do this part too.”

And so I don't think it was really a reconnection to nature that I had. It was my first connection and it worked well. And at the same time, I've worked with a lot of folks, because as you mentioned, I do a lot of equity, inclusion, and diversity and justice work, racial justice work. And there is a narrative that I also believe in -- that's that as I'm an African American woman. And so black folks have a historic background of being very, very integrated into nature, you know, very, very involved, very, very connected to nature. And it has been through oppression that many of us have been detached from that.

So in some ways. I can also say I have been reconnected to nature, you know, from maybe a family background or a racial history. And, you know, and I think about that a lot too. So I feel very much, you know, that I fulfilled my childhood dream of being someone who is a science communicator about nature and natural history, wild animals, that kind of thing.

And at the same time, I always try to assert that whether you grew up camping in your backyard and fly fishing or whether you discovered this in adulthood like I did, it's never too late, you know, and you always belong. And then of course, I think it goes without saying that we are nature. We are human beings.
We are a part of nature. We have entire populations of microorganisms that live inside of us. We are a population of organisms that live on this planet. We are nature. We cannot ever be truly detached from it. So it's about what level of nature are you existing in? That is the question.
Rob
Yeah, well, so much in your telling of that I share in common. I, like you, did not start out, running in the wilds much. And I love the nature shows as well. I used to watch Wild Kingdom with my dad, but I think it's a brilliant insight to remind everybody that we are nature as well.

There's that tendency, I think, in our culture to separate it. And that's where I want to go with this conversation for a little bit is, you know, you are studying some pretty intimidating animals, right? I mean, grizzly bears, lions -- I love those animals, but I'm pretty damn scared of them too. And one of the trends I've been following is the human-wildlife conflict. We hear coyotes in urban areas. Where I live right now, I hear them. I won't say most nights, but it's not uncommon to hear them right outside the door. Mountain lions are getting really good at navigating suburbs, and people, of course, are spreading out into their habitats. I'm wondering if you can talk some about that human-wildlife conflict, especially how we can do it more as a partnership instead of an us-versus-them, which is more of our history. What do you see as the way forward with sharing our landscapes with large carnivores?

Rae
Oh, I have so much to say about this. This is one of my favorite topics. And, you know, and I will say that human-wildlife conflict is something that I couldn't ever escape. So I took such an academic route towards being a wildlife ecologist. And I always wanted to study the ecology of these species, of African lions or of North American bears. I wanted to study how they interact with their environment. What do they need? How do we do conservation? And every single time I dove into a project, human-wildlife conflict would rear its ugly head and take me in that direction. You have to conquer this while collecting the data, while studying the ecology.

It's happening and it's urgent. And so, one of the things that I will start with is the language that we use. In the literature, in the academic space, we always say human-wildlife conflict, but there has been this push to change that phrase to human-wildlife interactions, because often we are not actually talking about a conflict. Often we're talking about people seeing an animal that makes them feel uncomfortable. And that is not necessarily a conflict. You know, when a bear is walking from point A to point B and your neighborhood is in the way, that doesn't have to be a conflict. That can really just be a bear walking, you know, they don't have cars, they don't have airplanes. They have to walk on their four paws to get from point A to point B. And sometimes our homes are in the way or our schoolyards or whatnot. And so really for all of us, whether you're an ecologist or just a citizen of this country or the world, really listening to our language can actually be a really important first step towards getting to coexistence and that harmony that you were just talking about, because if we say, “Oh, it's an interaction,” that is different. Almost like deer, you know, if you have deer in your yard, is it really a conflict or is it just the deer exist on this planet? They eat grass. They have to find it somewhere.

With that said, I definitely don't want to diminish the fact that there are people out there, many, many, many people who live with large predators and experience real conflict. You know, in particular people from cattle ranching or livestock rearing communities all over the world where losing an animal, let alone several animals, can have devastating impacts, which affects their families, their kids, their communities, their whole economies. So there's a lot of attention to those areas because they have a lot in common.

I mean, often these grasslands, whether it's in the northern Great Plains of North America or the savannas of East Africa, these grasslands are important habitat for wildlife and large carnivores, as well as important areas for livestock to graze. And in so many of these societies, there has been that coexistence for thousands and thousands of years, and it's in more modern times where we have land ownership changes, we have the legacy of colonialism and land stewardship rearing its ugly head. We have climate change. We have population shifts, you know, we have economies. I mean, we have so many different aspects of the world coming together to fuel these conflicts. And then we have the things that I'm kind of proud of, which is wildlife conservation.

So in a lot of places there, like -- let's take North America a hundred years ago, all the bears were killed off, right? And so conservationists like myself and a lot of my colleagues have been working really hard to bring, let's say, grizzly bears back to this part of the world. And we've had a lot of support for that. And so when conservation works well, and populations of carnivores rebound, then they exist on the landscape again, right? And this is not a landscape that they evolved in, right? They didn't evolve in a landscape with highways. They didn't evolve in a landscape with cattle. They didn't evolve in a landscape with human communities with guns and hostility, so there is just so much to tackle. And if I've learned anything from the parts of my career that have addressed human-wildlife conflict, it's that the social aspects really drive everything. So we can talk about data and patterns all day long, but it's really a, a human issue. And I find in many places, it's an economic issue.

If you take a cattle ranch with a family that has plenty of resources and plenty of insurance, and they are thriving, they're more than likely going to be pretty tolerant to a grizzly bear walking through their community. If you take a family that is on the verge of shutting down because the market is crashing and their land isn't healthy, if you take vulnerable people, they're going to be way more terrified of the fact that a grizzly bear is walking through their landscape.
And so I want to blow this up because I didn't learn this in school, and I really wish that I had, that communities of people need to be well resourced, healthy, and thriving, period. That is the only way that humans should live. It's also the only way that conservation can work. And I mean this in parts of the developing world, in parts of the developed world, all over the place. Human communities need to be well. Period. And from there, environmental health, wildlife conservation actually has a chance of working.
 
Rob
Well, this is part of the nuance that we talk about in Crazy Town a lot -- is these complex system feedbacks. Society is doing something, and that affects the environment, and the environment has got a feedback loop. And yeah, it's a real struggle sometimes to figure out what those feedbacks are. So I appreciate that you're looking at it. And I wonder If you could talk about another side of that, which has haunted me and actually moved my career along, because I used to be involved a lot more in your area with conservation biology and trying to conserve habitat. And, I had a lot of trouble with grief around the sixth mass extinction, which, you know, we're at a time where humanity has caused… you know, we talk about the Great Plains, and that's mostly soy and corn farms now, and the habitat has been utterly decimated. You can't really talk about the Midwest out to the Rockies and not be kind of sad about what we've done with the bison population. So I'm wondering, how do you work through that, knowing that humanity is overexploiting and abusing nature to a large degree?
How do you work through the day and process grief, but also keep charging forward and look for successes in conservation?
 
Rae
Yeah, this is important to talk about. I'm so glad you're bringing it up. And I'm going to say something that is maybe a bit hopeful, and then something that is a little bit tricky that I haven't quite worked out the articulation for yet, so bear with me. But the first thing is that it's important to me to be realistic and to not kind of have this toxic positivity that everything's going to be fine, um, because there has been some major things happening for a long time and we're looking at potential catastrophe on our planet really soon, if not already.

One of my heroes is also one of my peers. So there is a woman named Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. She's a marine scientist, a climate expert and advocate. She's an incredible person and thought leader, and she introduced the idea to me to move away from talking about hope. A lot of the times I get asked, “Do you have hope, you know, for the future?” Is it possible that we'll make it out to move away from talking about hope and to talk more about possibility? And that really hit me, and she just had this conversation with me over the summer, and so I've been using that a lot, but I want to attribute it to Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson – possibility. Because as a scientist, I know that we have several possibilities. One of them is really bad. Um, there are some possibilities that are so good, so good, and so it's like, why not lean into those? Because also, they're spelled out for us, right? Climate scientists, conservation scientists, environmental scientists have written the book on what to do next and what's step two and step three and step four on how we can get to the best possible possibility out there.

We can have a healthy, thriving planet real soon. One of the first things we have to do is stop emitting fossil fuels. Completely full on as soon as humanly possible. And so that gets into again, well, who's driving that? You know, there are big corporate machines driving the fossil fuel industry, and they don't want to stop because of the money that they can make today.

So that's my answer. My answer is that realistically, I know that there's so many different directions our future on this planet can go in. Some of those directions are great. And those are the ones that I'm working for. You know, I don't know a single environmental scientist, myself included, who's getting rich in this job, right? We're not doing it for the money. We're not doing it for the status. We're doing it because we understand what is possible. And there are some devastating options, some middle-of-the-road options, and some really good ones. And everyone I know in this industry is focused on those really, really good options and trying to help us get there.

Rob
Yeah, that's a lot of what, of course, we're about at the Post Carbon Institute -- is trying to present people with the reality, which often is hard to look at and hard to process. But then also our main focus is on building community resilience. If the systems that got us into this place, the economic systems, the political systems, are putting us at a point of unsustainability and we're seeing some
 societal unraveling around that, then we've got to be looking at how do we build resilient communities that actually respect the ecosystems where they are, rather than trying to exploit them? I really appreciate that. We have a communicator of your caliber out there, uh, spreading that message.

Rae
Listen, I am so fortunate to be surrounded by some incredible thought leaders. I count myself as a thought leader, and I will say when it comes to especially climate advocacy, that's not what my background is. And I have learned from some just tremendous people. So Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson, Leah Thomas, an intersectional environmentalist, I mean, the list goes on. There are just some wonderful, wonderful people out there who I learned from and absorbed from, and then I'm able to kind of help spread that message. And that actually brings me to the other thing I wanted to say that I have less of an articulation for, but you asked, you know, how do I approach the sixth mass extinction, kind of the heaviness of that, the weight of that.

And I guess one way that I feel I have the energy for it is because I have been down this rabbit hole recently in my academic space of environmental history, and I have been feeling very, very strongly that one big part of these environmental issues that we're facing, one big thing that's missing is acknowledgement of fault.

I find that often in this space, folks will talk about and even, you know, you did it, Rob, because we're socialized to do this to talk about “we” as humanity, like humanity is in this place, we have driven these problems. And it's not actually “we,” you know, so if I use my identity as an example, and I do this a lot in my podcast, I use my identity as an example, you don't see a lot of communities of black women who have actively driven climate change, right?

So a lot of communities of color, a lot of young people, a lot of women or gender minorities haven't been active in creating, again, those big corporate machines that have brought us to where we are now. And I often think a lot of that is what's missing, right? I mean, if you talk about what's going on, let's talk about, I mean… you mentioned it, the economies, the societies, the capitalism that has brought us to this place has been largely driven by powerful white men throughout history, starting hundreds of years ago. So we're not naming people necessarily in this generation, but from hundreds of years before -- the people in power. And we can even use the United States as an example. Like the United States got deforested, right, a couple of hundred years ago. You know, all the trees were cut down, all the animals were killed off, right? That wasn't black women or native women. That was, I mean, there was there, that wasn't Latino people. That was a singular group of people who did that damage, who spurred the industrial revolution, who started mining for fossil fuels. That group of people is still largely in charge and has the power to stop it and to end it. And so one thing I'm curious about is if we had more of that kind of acknowledgement out there about how did we get here?

Fossil fuels didn't just start burning themselves, right? Like the fossil fuels didn't just jump out of the Earth and start just combusting, right? This was designed, this was perpetuated. And can we talk about those demographics of people who have been pushing for this and how it got everyone to this place?

We're all experiencing those impacts, right? Like wealthy white kids of the future and very low-income kids of the color of the future are all going to experience these impacts disproportionately for sure, but we only have this one Earth. And so I've just been thinking a lot. This is not very scientific, but I've been thinking a lot about the social aspects and the social history and the colonial history of our world, and how that plays into the sixth mass extinction, wildlife conservation, human-wildlife conflict. I mean, just so much of what we're trying to correct today. I truly believe that it'll be harder for us to correct these issues if we don't truly acknowledge how we got there and who drove the problems.

Rob
Yeah, I think you're right on. I think we have a severe cultural problem that we have to address. We have to acknowledge the problems of the past and that are continuing today. It reminded me of that famous quote by Upton Sinclair, where he said something like, “It's hard to get somebody to understand something when their salary depends on them not understanding it,” and I think a lot of the people in power… I mean, I'm sure you've known folks who are heavily engaged in industry or who are running businesses, who would be the bigger emitters of fossil fuel emissions or who would cut down the forest or whatever, but they don't see themselves as the villain in the story. And it's not that I want to vilify them. Uh, well, maybe sometimes secretly just a bit. But it's more helping them see the systems that you and your colleagues are describing, so that they could understand we need to do something different. But that requires giving up power, which most people have difficulty doing. So, I mean you're right to be digging in, I think, on the on the social side.

Rae
It's a pathway. Yeah, you know I just try to be real specific. We don't have a lot of examples of folks being resistant to giving up power. We have like a lot of examples of men being resistant to giving up power. So, you know, I'm not trying to say men are the problem, but most of the current issues that the world is facing are driven by powerful men. And so, I'm just suggesting, what if different kinds of people were able to be in decision-making capabilities? Would we see a different world? It is entirely possible.

Rob
Sure. I would love to see that happen. I can readily acknowledge that the experiment of men running things has certainly put us in the bind that we're in now. So what's that definition of insanity? Doing the same thing and expecting different results? Of course, yes, please more diversity, more sharing of power. I'm right on board with you. And I actually want to get your opinion. I've got three daughters who are all embarking, or early on, in college times for them. And you talked about mentors and colleagues who have put ideas in your head and that you're now running with. Well, you're in that position in a big way, obviously as a college professor and as a host of a podcast and of television programs. So I want to know what advice, and this wide open, general, go wherever you want. What advice do you have for young people? Who are, are at that stage? Or if you want to expand for old people, for all people… anybody who's concerned about the environment, which should be all of us. What kinds of ideas do you want them running with?

Rae
I appreciate you asking this, and I have an answer, and I give this answer frequently, and it's pretty nontraditional. So sometimes it surprises folks, but especially for young people in let's say college age, which is my favorite demographic, honestly. I think one of the reasons I exist in the university setting is that I just love being with that generation. It's to really take care of yourself, really, really take care of yourself. And I mean, mental health, I mean, relaxation. As much as I have dedicated my entire life, and I mean, professional life to supporting the environment and hoping to heal the environment, I truly believe, none of us were put on this Earth to labor, to work. And yet work can be beautiful, it can be purposeful and important, but I do think that to solve the planet's biggest, most pressing problems, it needs to come from minds that are relaxed, minds that are creative, minds that are supported and healthy.

I'm not trying to say quit your job and just nap all day, every day, and don't ever engage in anything. I really am trying to say, focusing on your own individual wellness, whatever that means -- relationships, finances. work life balance -- I think that is the best way to show up as your best self for this movement. Burnt out people aren't very creative and, listen, it's not working, right? Like every, every brilliant person, we're not, it's not working. It's not working the way we need it to. We need something different. And so I just encourage anyone who's interested in, you know, whether you're interested in wild animals or conservation or climate or advocacy or education or whatever it is, we need you to be so well, because it takes a lot to make progress and it takes a lot of cooperation, and it takes a lot of commitment and a lot of time and energy. And like I said before, I don't know anyone who's getting rich off of being an environmental scientist. And so I just think that bringing your best self, whatever that means, is important.

And so, let me be more practical with what I'm saying. Sometimes there's this narrative that, oh, it's very competitive, right, to be a wildlife professional and you should get an internship or volunteer in your summers and kind of get that head start, get your foot in the door. And I don't really believe that. I actually don't think that you need to hustle more or work for free in order to excel in this space. I do think, and I'll use myself as an example… When I was in college, I was a waitress in the summers. You know, I just worked for tips and was a waitress and that's how I supported myself. And I didn't add on a volunteer position at this organization, because I didn't have the capacity for it. And I'm really glad I didn't because I was able to show up for class rested and healthy. And I was able to absorb the information. And when it was time for me to become a professional, I wasn't missing out on anything.

So again, I often have, you know, I have students write to me every single day saying, can I volunteer with you? Could I volunteer with you? And I usually say like, “You know what? No, no, I am so ready for you when the time comes. I am absolutely ready to employ you when it's time. I'm ready to recommend you to other organizations for employment when it's time, but don't do too much early on. Really know yourself, really, really love yourself, really make sure that you are healed and strong. And from there you can launch into a beautiful career.”

Rob
Well, I'm definitely going to make my kids listen to this episode, at least that part of it, because I think that's brilliant advice. It's very counter to what people are saying to college students nowadays. And so I really appreciate that. I wonder if we can turn back to what you were speaking about before with diversity, inclusion, and equity, especially in the sciences and in the work that you do. Could you share some of the things that you're seeing out there, maybe that are encouraging and then also just generally describe what you're working on in that aspect of bringing young people into the fold?
 
Rae
Yeah. Oh, there's so much to be excited about. I mean, I can very seriously talk about all of the barriers that especially people of color and black folks have to getting into this field. So happy to talk about that. And at the same time, there are so many more opportunities. There are so many more people of color, people from diverse, underrepresented backgrounds joining this field and becoming leaders. Again, it's one of the privileges I have of being in the academic space is I get to see like, well, who's taking the classes and who's getting serious about this, and who's defending their thesis, and who's applying for grad school, and it has become so much more diverse. There are so many brilliant people, there are so -- I mean you can't see me; this is a podcast -- but I'm beaming with pride, and part of that is just because of who's in college these days. I mean, you know, I hope the Supreme Court can hear this, but the diversity of college students these days has really impacted the environmental field for the better. So they should rethink some of their more recent policies, but also there's been a lot of programs.

So I will highlight just a couple, but there's a program called the Doris Duke Conservation Scholars Program, which is for college students from underrepresented groups. And that can mean a lot of different things and they get a full scholarship to go to college. They can choose from several programs in the United States and study conservation, and they get mentorship. I'm a mentor. They get really hands-on wildlife internship experiences in the summer --pPaid research experiences, again, not volunteer, right? They get these tremendous immersive opportunities to be empowered as leaders, not just students, but students with tremendous leadership potential.

The Nature Conservancy has some amazing internship, again, paid internship programs, specifically for young people of color. Most of the major environmental nonprofits… National Geographic Society, a lot of people don't know that National Geographic Society is a nonprofit science-based conservation nonprofit organization. Nat Geo has some internship programs for HBCU students, so black folks in colleges and universities. There's a lot of these really empowering, wonderful paid experiences out there, and it's making a difference. Now we're seeing people five, ten years out of those programs in these leadership positions, doing a tremendous job. And there is a time when me and the other, you know, folks of color from my generation were the only ones in our programs, and we only knew a couple of each other through these programs.

I also want to highlight the power of social media, like, Instagram came on the scene when I was in graduate school, and all of a sudden I could post a picture of what I was doing in the field. So you know, the first picture I ever posted on Instagram was me in the field with a black bear taking its temperature by putting a thermometer in its anus, right? So it's like I'm doing a rectal -- the temperature check of a black bear and I was able to say like, “Hey, this is what I look like. And this is what I'm doing right now.” And just with the power of social media, I was able to notice what other people looked like, what other women or black women or, you know, brown women were doing wildlife work, just through the power of social media and being able to connect that way. So I will say so many of the folks that I know in this space, I haven't even met in real life, but we have this community virtually. And I just, you know, I always want to highlight that because social media can be so problematic, so problematic, but it can also be a wonderful community building tool, especially for nontraditional folks in the sciences.

Rob
Yeah. How are you feeling that the change, like, you know, you said when you were coming along, maybe there weren't very many people of color in the conservation sciences. And I'm wondering, are you, I mean, obviously you're excited about the opportunities that you just listed for young folks. How are you personally feeling? Has there been a lot of change in a short amount of space?
 
Rae
There's been a lot of change. There has been a lot of change. I feel so fortunate that I'm aware of it. Positive change. It is a more diverse space, for sure. And the way that it impacts me the most, honestly, is it makes me feel like, “Oh, I can put some of this down, right?”

So I've actually struggled for a long time. As I've moved more into science communication, I've struggled with… Well, I'm still an active research scientist. Like I'm still, I still have a project. I'm still collecting data and actually being able to visually see how diverse the field is becoming has allowed me to feel like, “Oh, I don't have to do it all.” Like there are so many way more capable, you know, black ecologists that exist now that they can do that, and they could do it better than me. And so just from a personal level, I've found that I'm able to relax more and really focus on my strengths, knowing that there are so many other folks who can just take that baton.

And at the same time, it's really important to say that that's not the end of the game, right? So if we talk about racism for a moment, systemic racism is systemic, right? So you can't just diversify, you know, have black and brown folks in the environmental movement and say like, “Yes, we did it right.” It doesn't make a difference how diverse your organization is, or your academic department is, if folks are going to get shot on the way home being pulled over by the police. It doesn't matter how diverse things are if people are at risk when they leave work. And so that's why one of the things that I often say is that if you support science, you need to support scientists, and scientists are immigrants, and young women of reproductive age, and people from religious minorities, and black and brown, and from the LGBTIQ community, right? And so if you believe in science, you believe in the environment, you want to support those things, you have to support the people who do it, and they cannot be facing oppression and do their jobs well at the same time.

And so that's one of the things where yes, right, like some of those barriers are coming down, but those big barriers still exist and in some cases more than ever, and it's kind of like one fight. I don't like to think that we're fighting a whole bunch of different fights, it's kind of like one, right? If we want a healthy, balanced, thriving planet, that means everyone has to be well in order for the Earth to be well. And I never want people to think that if you see, you know, a rainbow of people in your faculty meeting, you know, or in your staff meeting, that means that we're all done and we've made it. Well, all of those people are safe and healthy and well resourced and their communities are thriving. W e're not there yet.

Rob
Yeah, well said. It's a good point to look at the whole system and to play whatever role you can. We're always trying to encourage people to do real things in the real world, and supporting those scientists in work, yes, but outside of work too is hugely important. You brought up how you've made a transition of sorts from the data side, the science side, not to say that you've given that up, but to more of the communication side. And I think you're a bit of a storyteller, maybe at heart. It's clear that you've learned how to communicate effectively. And there's a lot of folks out there in the world who don't know that much about our environmental predicament. You know, you can actually get a college education these days, at least at most universities, without studying ecology or environmental systems or anything like that. We've often talked about how almost nobody knows anything about energy. Where does their energy come from? But you are looking to remedy that in ways by getting out and communicating to very large audiences. And that's a skill that I really admire, and it can require a lifetime to develop it, but maybe, just maybe, you know a shortcut or two that you could share or offer some tips storytellers?

Rae
Gosh, you just showered me with a bunch of compliments, so I have to say, “Thank you very much.” And I do, I feel so much imposter syndrome because when you go through such rigorous scientific training, you learn how much you don't know, right? It's like the more you learn, the more you realize how much you don't know. So the fact that I've been trained in this one little wildlife ecology so strongly always makes me feel like, well, I'd never been trained in communications. Right. There are people who that's their expertise. And I like to talk and I have always thought that what I do is cool. And I've come from a family and a community that historically hasn't been super-involved in wildlife conservation. And so just naturally without cameras, without microphones, I have always come from the field and talked about it to my friends and my family and my community. Just to say like, “Guess what I just did? Guess how I spent my summer. Guess what I'm learning about. Let me tell you about the bears in the Sierra Nevada.”. And so that really set me up for doing it a lot and more professionally. And I guess from that experience, I've learned there are no rules. There are absolutely no rules. You do not have to have a formal training in something to be good at it, right? You do not have to be granted a green light to say what you want to say.

And at the same time, I will say that, man, for the very kind of high level things I do my podcast with PBS Nature, you know, the television work I've done with National Geographic or now with Wild Kingdom on NBC -- none of those things started the way I thought they would, you know, it's not like I went to an audition or sent in an application for something that was very much squared away and in the box, all of these things kind of transformed from ideas. And there was a lot of failure. There was, so I have had way more failure in my science communication life than I have in my science life, way more. And there have been times that I have said, “I'm done. This is not fun.” It is really, really harmful to my self-esteem, and I gotta walk away. And I did walk away, but then I've come back, you know, to give it another shot.

And so I guess that's, that's the advice I would give is that there's no clear path. There's no blueprint to success in entertainment or science communication or storytelling. I feel so much that individuals get there in so many different ways, and I've had the privilege of working with big names in the industry, and I got there through science. I got it through National Geographic Society by proposing a science research project and then kind of hanging out with those folks and being like, “Oh, can I also talk about the science?” You know, I got to PBS through science, through doing a bear show with them because they needed a bear biologist on the show. They didn't need a host, right? So, I will say that I didn't stumble into science communication, I always wanted to do it, but it wasn't where I went first. I always got there through my science work. And I say that to say there are just no rules, I cannot figure out a single pattern to this, but I would say that you are worthy. Your ideas are worthy. I think writing is a good way in. I think written work is just an amazing way in. I haven't done enough of that. And I would also say that, that you should try it. And you should also stop when it hurts. I do not recommend pushing through when it is harmful.

Rob
I think you've just laid out some really good wisdom that can apply in all aspects of life -- from practice, like the stories of telling your family and friends, and don't be afraid to fail. You obviously went to that level and realized when enough was enough and you had to stop. So, yeah that's really helpful. You brought up your podcast, Going Wild, and I want to get to that in a sec, but I also just want to say I think it's so cool that you're doing Wild Kingdom. As I said earlier in the show, my dad and I used to watch that together. I think that put me on a, on a nature path similar to yours. How awesome is that? You gotta be psyched to be doing that.

Rae
I honestly, I struggle to talk about it a little bit because it's so surreal to me. I was a little kid, and my family, for a long time, we didn't have a television. My grandparents did, and I used to watch Wild Kingdom on the living room floor at my grandparents’ house. And I just used to look at the screen and say, “I want to do that. I want to be the host of a show just like this.” And Wild Kingdom came on air in 1963, and this year, 2023, is the 60th anniversary of Wild Kingdom, and it's coming back to NBC, its original home, and I am the new host. I have a co host, Peter Gross, who was one of the original hosts from the 80s and 90s, and once again, I didn't audition for this, right? I didn't send in an application. I was considered amongst a pool of people, and I had absolutely -- I didn't know I was being considered at the time. So there was nothing I could do to make myself look extra good. But I got, I got a phone call from Wild Kingdom last fall, and they said we want to bring it back, and are you interested? And they had no idea that I was the little girl that used to watch that show that used to say to her teachers at school, “I want to host Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom.” So, it is tremendous. It airs on NBC, October 7th, and it will be on every Saturday morning on NBC. Every single Saturday morning, not a Saturday morning will go by without Wild Kingdom back. And you will see me all over the world with wild animals. And it is just tremendous.

And honestly, it is a compliment to my podcast, Going Wild, because they're so different. So, on Wild Kingdom, you'll see me doing the adventure, and in Going Wild, you'll hear me and my guests talking about the behind the scenes of these adventures with wild animals. Everything you don't see, like on TV, we make it look good. It's like triumphant, right? And in the podcast, we talk about what really happened? So one of our taglines is, you know, the human drama in saving animals. And so there's just, there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes and sometimes it's scary and suspenseful and amazing and very, very intersectional how we talk about ourselves and who we are and all of these things felt. So I feel so lucky to have these complementary programs where one is very personal. And one that's kind of sensational, but it's all in service of introducing people to the wild, to wildlife, to wild animals and to conservation.

Rob
Well, the podcast is great. I've listened to a number of episodes of Going Wild and really have fun…

Rae
Thank you. 

Rob
…in hearing that side that you don't often get. I really like that, you know, movies, TV, whatever, podcasts that put you in places that you wouldn't normally be in. I don't want to take too much of your time. So I want to give you a final question. Hopefully this doesn't put too much pressure on you.
But, what do you think, as a storyteller, what do you think is the most important story to tell at this moment in human history? What do people really need to hear to change course and make our way in this world in a way where we're stewards of the planet rather than exploiters?

Rae
Aye yay yay, no pressure! Um, I have never been asked this question. And so what comes to mind immediately is something that is a little bit corny. And I'm trying to think of how do I not make it sound just so sappy? But what really comes to mind to me is stories of love, and that's because we are all so different as individuals, us as communities or different societies. Everyone around the world is so different from one another, but there are some things that we can all share and understand and experience in our own ways. And one of those things is love, whether it's a love of wildlife or a love of nature or a love of each other, a love of a child or whatever it is. I think stories that have that kind of heart are the ones that unify us the most and can help us agree with each other and collaborate with each other and cooperate with each other and maybe move forward positively. We really do try to do that in my podcast Going Wild. And so some people tell stories of adventures in the wilderness with parallel stories about the way their parents raised them or their gender identity and how you know how that has shown up or maybe losing love in some places. And I think bringing that kind of heart to whatever story you're telling can help folks connect and I'd really do mean anything. I mean, there are people out there who are very, very successful on YouTube because they really love makeup, right? And loving something is… that's okay because you can tell when someone has a tremendous passion and deep care for something or for someone. And I really think that you can't lose when you lead with that.

Rob
Well, I'm kind of a softy, so that's not corny at all to me. I think having a vulnerability, being willing to express it, really important sentiments, and I really appreciate the work that you're doing on that front. Going Wild is about to launch a new season. We're excited about that and I hope that that it tells every story that you want to tell. I really appreciate you coming on Crazy Town, Rae, and I wish you all the best.

Rae
Thank you so much. This has been awesome. Happy to come back anytime.

Rob
All right. Thank you.

Melody
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