Self Domestication and Overshoot, or… the Story of Foxes and Russian Melodrama

Self domestication, the process by which humans became a more cooperative and less aggressive species, paradoxically contributes to humanity's overshoot predicament. While trying to wrap their heads around that nugget, Asher, Jason, and Rob geek out on evolutionary biology, 80s professional wrestling characters, and a certain comedic song about foxes. Don't miss Jason's entertaining pronunciations of the names of Russian scientists and politicians as he tells the story of a groundbreaking experiment that took place in the hinterlands of Siberia. In the Do-the-Opposite segment, we struggle with the conundrum of how to maintain the benefits of cooperative behavior and avoid violence during economic relocalization, all while trying to figure out what the hell a fief is.

Transcript

Rob Dietz  
Hi, I'm Rob Dietz.

Asher Miller  
I'm Asher Miller.

Jason Bradford  
And I'm Jason Bradford. Welcome to Crazy Town where we give you 10 - 1 odds that Las Vegas will be ghost town by the end of the century.

Rob Dietz  
Today's topic is self domestication and humanity's rise into a hyper cooperative species.

Jason Bradford  
Evolutionary biologists run a muck. Get ready, folks.

Jason Bradford  
Okay, guys, you guys are probably aware that my degree is in evolutionary biology so I'm pretty excited about today's show and what we're going to talk about because I can talk about Charles Darwin. 

Rob Dietz  
Wow, your hero. Your personal hero. 

Jason Bradford  
Did you know that my boys were born on the same day that Charles Darwin- not the same year -

Asher Miller  
Your two boys, Charles and Darwin? 

Jason Bradford  
No, I tried. I couldn't go that far. February 12th. Okay, so that was a big deal for me personally. 

Asher Miller  
What was February 12? I know taht's their birthday. But what is - 

Jason Bradford  
It's Charles Darwin's birthday, okay. They had the same birthday. This is perfect. I got the fecundity award at the annual Charles Darwin birthday party in graduate school because of this. 

Asher Miller  
Wow, wow. 

Jason Bradford  
Yeah, yeah. I left my wife and kids in the hospital. I went to the party. And I got the word. 

Rob Dietz  
I thought you were making that up. But I now see that's a real thing that happened. You actually - the nerdy, other PhD candidates actually presented you with a fecundity award.

Jason Bradford  
I had twins. You know. It was all me. Okay? I made a double. I made her double ovulate.

Rob Dietz  
Wow. Did you - Did you just claim like you did it all in the birth of children? Because that just doesn't play well with the mothers.

Asher Miller  
It's a good thing his wife doesn't listen to this podcast.

Jason Bradford  
Shit. Okay, Melody, cut this part out, maybe. Alright? Let's talk about editing. Anyhow. Okay, let's move on. So, Darwin had a book called "The Variation of Animals and Plants Under Domestication" published in 1868. I know we've all read this. And it was very influential for this doctor, this research scientist, in the Soviet Union. And I apologize for all our Russian Crazy Town fans. I am not sure I'm going to pronounce any names correctly going forward here. Okay, Dmitry Belyayev. And he had a very important assistant at the time, Lyudmila Trut. And they were -

Rob Dietz  
What about Nikolai Volkoff? Was he involved?

Jason Bradford  
I don't know. Let me keep reading.

Rob Dietz  
That's a wrestler from the old days.

Asher Miller  
Three of our listeners just got back and were laughing.

Jason Bradford  
Anyway, they worked at the Institute of Psychology and Genetics in Novosibirsk, Siberia. Which apparently was this like, place pretty high up in the, you know, Siberia. And they were somewhat isolated then from like Moscow and the political machinations going on.

Rob Dietz  
Is this like a punishment to be banished to this lab?

Jason Bradford  
Well, it was supposed to be this great city in Siberia, where they were going to, you know, do great things even up in that part of this, you know, quote - unquote, wasteland. But anyhow, the problem that they had was that in the Soviet Union, there was really a backlash against Darwinism and genetics.

Asher Miller  
Unlike this country. Yeah, we have no issues with that.

Jason Bradford  
Right? This is very ideological. Not from a religious perspective, but they're kind of anyways, it's complicated. But what ended up happening was Stalin put in place this guy who was his this uneducated peasant. And he ended up rising very high in the ranks of like, the science institutes of the Soviet Union. His name was Trofim Lysenko. And he almost just cut out the research of these people, which I will get into, which is very important. 

Rob Dietz  
Okay. 

Jason Bradford  
But it was saved by Rada Khrushchev. The daughter of leader.

Rob Dietz  
Oh the daughter. I feel like you're going through some, like Dr. Zhivago, or Crime and Punishment, some like epic Russian story.

Jason Bradford  
Epic stories. What I'm saying is that one of the greatest experiments in the history of evolutionary biology - 

Asher Miller  
Which you're about to tell us -

Jason Bradford  
Which I'm about to tell you - almost didn't happen because of bizarre stuff happening in Soviet Union. I

Rob Dietz  
I bet you Nikolai Volkoff stormed the ring and saved the day, right? Is that what happened?

Jason Bradford  
Yeah. So they kind of had to hide what they're doing. And so they were domesticating -

Asher Miller  
Thank god they were way up there in Siberia.

Jason Bradford  
Yeah. They were domesticating foxes. And you can say, "Oh, we're making nice fur coats. And we're . . . " You know, it was really a secret study of how domestication happens. And what are the consequences? Because there's this thing called - that  Darwin described all these traits of domesticated species - and it's called the Domestication Syndrome now. Domesticated animals are less aggressive. They are more affable and cooperative. They take juvenile kind of play characteristics and they maintain them into adulthood.

Rob Dietz  
Can you tell that to the Rottweilers that attack me when I ride by on my bike? 

Jason Bradford  
Yes!

Rob Dietz  
I think they missed that memo of Domestication Syndrome.

Jason Bradford  
It's imperfect still. We're all working towards a better - You know, they have better eye contact. And that's been measured now that there's real changes in key chemicals in the brain. Like serotonin levels are higher indomesticates. Oxytocin levels. Cortisol is downregulated more. There is, you know, less surges in testosterone in the males. And these alterations are not only on the chemistry in the brain, but there's these features of the organism and their morphology, which basically have taken juvenile characteristics of the body and sort of kept them into adulthood.

Rob Dietz  
Okay, so these Russian scientists who almost didn't do it. Took bunch of foxes, and what did they do? They just bred them and found out there's all these traits that pop up?

Jason Bradford  
What did it they did - they did the simplest thing. They had these foxes in these cages, and they would approach, and they had hundreds of right? And they would approach, and the ones that were the tamest, the time is 10%, they let breed. And they did that for six generations. They got something that looked like a puppy dog. 

Asher Miller  
Wow. For 6 generations?

Jason Bradford  
Yeah, six years. It's like a generation a year. So in six years, they had a picture of this animal that had floppy years, had a short snout, had sort of started getting model coating that so that the color patterns started changing, and would curl up in your lap like a little dog. 

Rob Dietz  
Wow. So one one thing that I didn't see in your notes, Jason was there was another thing they figured out in this research, and that was they learned what does the fox say? 

Asher Miller  
Okay, so that was probably the most important part of this study.

Jason Bradford  
I'm sorry - 

Asher Miller  
Jason doest get it. 

Jason Bradford  
I didn't even come across it.

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, you must have been out farming when the international band, Ylvis, came out with the song "What Does the Fox Say?" You've got some catching up to do. 

Jason Bradford  
Yeah, yeah. After the show I'll play -

Asher Miller  
You're reading too many scientific papers and not enough Youtube. 

Jason Bradford  
Yes. But really - one of the other key ones that's important is concealed ovulation. Okay? And aseasonal reproduction. Really interesting stuff, okay? So I think about the rut. The traditional rut. You imagine these animals are like crashing and chess bouncing and their testosterone levels are surging, but no. In domesticates it's like, nice, even keel can mate now, mate later, it's okay. 

Rob Dietz  
Okay, so much less forcefulness and - 

Jason Bradford  
Much, much less aggression. 

Rob Dietz  
By the way, I hear our Pacific Tree Frog might be moving around back there.

Asher Miller  
He wants to be domesticated right now.

Jason Bradford  
Yeah. 

Asher Miller  
So you're talking about us untervening? 

Jason Bradford  
Yeah, artificially doing it

Asher Miller  
Artificially domesticating. But that's not the only form of domestication that happens, right? I mean, we also, we have, I guess, what would people call self-domestication?

Jason Bradford  
Well, I think that's an important distinction. This was actually a test of how things were domesticated and what would happen. And you're right, I think that now we think that. a lot of times, it's sort of the species domesticate themselves, and then maybe what kicks in is what's called artificial selection. So that after they're kind of grabbed a little bit, then we start focusing on these traits.

Asher Miller  
But when we talk about self domestication, I mean, I think, at least for me, I always thought, okay well, humans domesticated livestock, we domesticated dogs. You're know, you're just describing that process of doing that with foxes. You know, I always assumed that we'd done that with dogs a long time ago. But I think, from what I've read, and the research that I think has been been done looking back that actually dogs kind of domesticated themselves. 

Jason Bradford  
Yes. 

Asher Miller  
Right? And so, from the predecessor of the wolf, they - it wasn't like we took wolf puppies away from their pack.

Jason Bradford  
We didn't do the fox experiment. 

Asher Miller  
No, we didn't do that. They were, you know, there were some of these wolves who came close by. Maybe they were friendlier or they were less aggressive. They looked less aggressive. We left them alone. They were eating our garbage that we left on the outside of the tribal grounds or whatever. And over time they had an advantage, right?Aadaptive advantage because they had more calories and they were able to thrive, right? So they did it to themselves.

Rob Dietz  
Although much later we did it, right? Like those Kennel Club people who run dogs around and grab them right by the genitals. Like those guys, they're breeding dogs for specific breeds.

Rob Dietz  
If those wolves would've known what would happen to them. 

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, they would have stayed -  

Asher Miller  
Someday, I'm gonna be a chihuahua getting my balls felt. Some weird - 

Rob Dietz  
On camera.

Jason Bradford  
So that's the thing. So I think what we're getting at is that these animals made the initial step to come close to us. And then we said, "Okay, yeah, come on in. And now I'm gonna even, I'm going to select on the traits I really like," right? You know, like, so sitting in the lap. And -

Rob Dietz  
So that brings us to what we want to point out is the hidden driver of this episode, which is that we humans have gone through this process of self-domestication. You know, we used to be a wild species. I don't know if we ever did the rut thing you were talking about, Jason. But over time, we developed these traits of the domestication syndrome. And we did that through evolutionary forces, right?

Jason Bradford  
Yeah. And I think also, the thing about it is there are wild species that have elements of the syndrome. So, for example, the bonobo chimpanzee is kind of considered almost a parallel of humans in the sense that, yeah, I got sort of tamer, it got friendlier. It didn't kick into the degree we did. But, in essence, I wouldn't say there's a difference of like, oh, now we're not wild. No, we did this as a species out in the wild. Right? And so that's how I look at it. But then we took other organisms, and we quote-unquote, domesticated them and brought them into the fold of, you know, human society.

Rob Dietz  
Right. But if we are a self-domesticated species now, and we want to talk about that as something that's driven us into the sustainability crises and other problems that we see today, I think it's important to figure out or to explain, what are the characteristics of that self-domestication in humans? And what does that mean for us? Like, who are we as a result of that? 

Jason Bradford  
Well, we're tamer, right? And behaviorally less aggressive. More affable. More cooperative. Playfulness retained to an adulthood. More interested in communication and these eye contacts. And pphysical changes. So the term that is often used in development is neoteny, which is the taking of juvenile traits and extending the period of development.

Asher Miller  
So basically, we never grew up.

Jason Bradford  
Yeah, right. 

Rob Dietz  
It first well for the three of us.

Jason Bradford  
Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah, so you extend the period of maturation so it just takes longer and longer to go through this normal stages of maturation. And finally, your gonads mature and you kind of look like a juvenile of this you know, a related species.

Rob Dietz  
Too many inappropriate jokes right there. I'm just gonna shut up here for a bit. 

Asher Miller  
Yeah, I saw this picture of this kid in the basement of his parents house. He's like, 20-whatever. He's like, "I'm just evolving here, okay?"

Jason Bradford  
He never grew up.

Rob Dietz  
So basically, this friendliness and cooperativeness became our defining trait.

Jason Bradford  
Yeah.

Asher Miller  
And if that's if that's the case, it's interesting to think about that that self-domestication had this profound impact on the course of not only our history, but the the history of the planet and other species. I mean, this seems to change over time. But now they're talking about how they're up to nine closely related species. Right, homo-species. Were Homosapiens, and there were others that coexisted, right? We're the only ones left. And to think that it was our friendliness, our self-domestication towards friendliness, and maybe more cooperation, and these other traits that we had. That actually led to the downfall and out competition against these other species that, I think arguably they say, may have been more intelligent than us, stronger than us . . . You would think, in the abstract, that we wouldn't have been the ones to have outlasted and outcompeted these others species.

Jason Bradford  
Well, like for neanderTHals - 

Asher Miller  
NeanderTals. 

Jason Bradford  
Neandertals. For example -

Rob Dietz  
When did that happen by the way?

Asher Miller  
Eight years ago.

Rob Dietz  
I like Neanderthals better.

Asher Miller  
it was on the birthday of Darwin. They changed it. 

Rob Dietz  
Who's the decider in the official pronunciation of an extinct species of hominid? 

Asher Miller  
The friendliest person.

Rob Dietz  
It should be Jason after his Russian pronunciations at the -

Jason Bradford  
I am so sorry, comrades. Ah! Anyhow, where were we?

Rob Dietz  
Well, I think we're talking about the, sounds to me like: friendliness as a superpower.

Jason Bradford  
Oh, yeah. And then so the neandertals, I was gonna say, had larger brains. They were very well adapted to life in in Europe and even Northern Europe. They were - they had like bigger lung cages and stouter and they were furrier. And like all these things like, they could deal with cold better and somehow, yeah, these little kind of juvenile looking runts, show up and eventually kick their ass.

Rob Dietz  
Yeah. I think we just gave them the puppy eyes and then we hit him upside the head with a stick or something.

Jason Bradford  
Oh, gosh.

Rob Dietz  
So, I was never a fan of the show Survivor. I'm not a reality TV guy very much. But I do know that the motto of that show was: Outwit, Outplay, Outlast. And it seems like - that that really is I think most people's notion of how one species outcompetes another. But what we're really saying is humans develop the superpower of friendliness and ours became something more like: Outcooperate, Outhug, Outtrade, Out-you know, like kind of these very friendly, cooperative ways of advancing beyond these other competing humanoids. 

Asher Miller  
Yeah, and I think it's saying, "Hey, we're friendlier. So we outlasted and outcompeted." It was the fact that we developed these forms of communication. We had trade between groups, we were able to harness the creativity and the technology that was developed from other tribes or other groups, through this cooperation and friendliness that we had. That allowed us to have these material advantages over these other species.

Jason Bradford  
Yeah, there was like a proposed positive feedback loop between extending the time of development that allows the learning period. You know how there's the idea that there's, there's these windows where you learn languages easier, and there's a time that it takes the brain to develop that sort of synapses and grooves and then pruning and all this. That it just - we have all this time in the human brain to develop. And so you just have these openness to new things, and really a lot of creativity. And that sort of advanced culture and language so much. And then once you have that you can coordinate like crazy, and plan. And then,yeah, that that's what - wasn't the physicality of us as individuals. It was this collective ability to plan and execute. 

Rob Dietz  
Okay, most people think of that as a hugely positive thing, right? Like it's a good thing that we can cooperate, that we can plan and do these wonderful works together, right. But it seems like there's got to be a downside there doesn't there?

Asher Miller  
Well, that's what we're talking about now. I mean, that cooperation, that that ability to harness all this technology and that creativity collectively, has now led us to dominate the planet. And dominate it to the point where our own survival and the survival of all these other species is at risk.

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, Jason, you turned me on to this quote here from a guy named Nick Longrich.  Thankfully, he's not Russian. Yeah, I pronounced that right. Senior Lecturer of Paleontology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Bath. You want to read that for us since you found it? 

Jason Bradford  
"But cave paintings, carvings and musical instruments hint at something far more dangerous. A sophisticated capacity for abstract thought and communication. The ability to cooperate - 

Rob Dietz  
Wow, this so dramatic.

Jason Bradford  
 - stategize, manipulate and deceive, may have been our ultimate weapon."

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, so it seems like that's the deal. So we do this self-domestication thing and suddenly a couple 100,000 years later we're dominating everything. Because we're so friendly.

Asher Miller  
Well, I do want to point out that it may have allowed us to dominate the planet. certainly dominate these other species, including other homo species, but there was a lot of kind of intraspecies fighting that's been going on for a long time.

Jason Bradford  
Can you prove that?

Rob Dietz  
Has a human ever raised a finger against another human? 

Asher Miller  
Yeah, if you look at the history books -

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, I'm raising my my finger against you guys right now.

Asher Miller  
History books are just they're kind of boring. They're just filled with stories of everyone getting along. 

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, yeah. If I have to listen to one more time that people saying "Kum Bah Yah" around the campfire - 

Jason Bradford  
The Game of Thrones is just like a one sickening sappy scenario after another. 

Rob Dietz  
I know. 

Asher Miller  
I just want to point out, yes, this week we talked about friendliness and cooperation, but there's been a lot of fighting as well within the species and frankly a lot of domination, particularly European domination, of Indigenous peoples all around the world, you know? A huge consequence of that.

Jason Bradford  
Well then also within European history is like these borders, right? That kind of ebb and flow a little bit of these European nation states and these fiefdoms and all the castles you can go find. Where they were just like protecting their territory.

Rob Dietz  
What is a fief, exactly? And how does one who is a fief come to get a fiefdom? 

Jason Bradford  
Darn it. I wish I was better at knowing what I'm talking about. Great word. 

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, yeah I know. Yeah, maybe we can all aspire to become fiefs.

Asher Miller  
Just a Lord. You know?

Rob Dietz  
Just a self-domesticated Lord.

Rob Dietz  
So, okay, that's fine. I mean, no one disputes that there's a lot of infighting that's happened. But you still can't dispute that through our cooperative tendencies we'vekind of colonized the whole planet.

Jason Bradford  
Yeah. I mean, this kind of reminds me of - I've got an ant story for you.

Rob Dietz  
Oh, like your, your aunt and uncle?

Jason Bradford  
No, no, no. Like, wasn't there a Pixar film like that? Ants?

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, the Pixar one was "Bug's Life." There was one called "Ants."

Jason Bradford  
Okay.

Rob Dietz  
 It was I think DreamWorks. I'm done with the pop culture trap. 

Jason Bradford  
I was just I was trying to give you a chance.

Rob Dietz  
Nikolai Volkoff was in neither movie. Okay? 

Jason Bradford  
Okay. 

Asher Miller  
I think Jerry Seinfield was.

Jason Bradford  
And there was a one -

Rob Dietz  
That was "Bee Movie." 

Asher Miller  
Oh, crap. 

Jason Bradford  
What was the ant movie where there were giant ants?

Rob Dietz  
Oh, you're you're like going way back. Empire of the Ants? I don't know. There were a bunch. Giant insects attacking civilization is always held in high regard.

Jason Bradford  
It is. And that's impossible. But it is possible for ants to really take over. And so there's a fantastic, really interesting research. This is great to geek out on this again. Of the Argentine ant - 

Rob Dietz  
Evolutionary biologist run a muck. Get ready, folks.

Jason Bradford  
So the Argentine ant, actually a lot people are familiar with it, but not from its native habitat. It's from Argentina - is where the the native range is. And it's got a modest range. And, you know, an individual colony might occupy say, the area of a backyard. You know, a suburban backyard, normally. And what ends up happening is that the colony spread is sort of hampered by the fact that there's another colony, and it's got its own territory. And it's kind of like defending its territory. So in the wild, native state of these of the species of ant, they kind of keep each other in check. They spend energy sort of fighting these pitch battles along the terror.

Rob Dietz  
This is kind of like the fiefdom thing like. Like humans used to be.

Jason Bradford  
Like humans used to be. You know, it's sort of in the old days, the Earth can kind of tolerate humans spread out because we were kind of keeping each other in check. Right? But here's the here's the interesting take on this. It's that the species has now been transported around the world.

Asher Miller  
The Argentine ant?

Jason Bradford  
The Argentine ants have been spread, okay? And where they've gone to, they've taken over and just enormous ways. And people thought maybe it was a normal kind of invasive species story where, oh, you know, it somehow is really well adapted to this new environment and no one knows how to deal with it. But it turns out, there's a special sauce to its success. It's that when they got transported and colonized a new area, there was no genetic variation. And so when each ant colony spreads and creates another colony, the colonies don't recognize each other as different. They function as one super colony. And so, there's a super colony n like the West Coast, California area, that apparently has about a trillion individuals in it. 

Rob Dietz  
A trillion. I don't understand that number. Okay.

Jason Bradford  
Just let's look at the national debt clock.

Rob Dietz  
Oh, money! Yeah, okay now I understand it. 

Jason Bradford  
Money is easy. Easy to understand. But apparently, also, there's the same phenomena as in Japan, in the Mediterranean. And even the same genotypes that's in California apparently is also in Japan and Europe. So it's almost like there's this global supercolony.

Rob Dietz  
Except in Argentina. If they go back there, then the shit gets real. 

Jason Bradford  
Yeah, exactly. And so it's this idea that they were released essentially from the competition between their own kind. They became super cooperative. And then they just, they just took over they decimated other species. They're a problem invasive species leading to extinction and to take over habitat. It's kind of like what he did. You know?

Asher Miller  
Yeah. It's so it's so interesting to think about that because here we we seem to have this celebration of global connectivity and a sharing of culture. And, you know, I think about what some of these pundits that we have in thought leaders who talk about how, "This is the least violent we've ever been." You know, paints sort of this rosy picture of cooperation globally. And those are all things that yes, we want to see. We want to see reduced violence globally, fewer wars, you know, more cooperation. 

Jason Bradford  
Yeah, the neoliberal promise 

Asher Miller  
But there's this dark side to it, right? As if there are no limits there. Through that cooperation, you know?

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, it's it's infuriating. I don't know if you guys saw that book that came out this past year called "One Billion Americans."

Jason Bradford  
Yes. Oh gosh. 

Rob Dietz  
It's almost like an Argentine ant is like, "Let's keep it going. Let's let's expand even more. Let's keep this story -"

Jason Bradford  
Well, the analogy, like they call these super colonies of ants, and I know that we've seen the analogy for humans of calling - we're the super organism.

Asher Miller  
Yeah, our friend Nate Hagens has talked about humans as a super organism. 

Jason Bradford  
A super organism. This just machine just churning up the planet now because we've basically removed the limits on ourselves.

Rob Dietz  
That what you see happening is all through a collective action of the super organism. Tather than, you know, the individual.

Asher Miller  
A bizarre outcome of our friendliness. Like, it's such a strange thing to consider. But I think, Jason, you're raising this really challenging question for us. Because what? It's not like we want to be advocating for us to go, to sort of follow that Argentine, you know, ant model in the native place.

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, let's let's go back and re-localize and then beat the shit out of each to control ourselves.

Asher Miller  
The last thing we want, is cooperation or friendliness amongst people, right?

Jason Bradford  
This is a conundrum.

Asher Miller  
Yeah, we're stuck between these things. Right?

Rob Dietz  
Well, so I mean, I think that's the question, right? It's like, okay, if we're going to re-localize either by some planned way of getting out of our overshoot predicament where there's too many of us consuming too much - If we're going to do that in a planned way, or whether nature forces it on us, let's just say, somewhere down the road we're re-localizing our communities unto bio regions, or whatever it is nations that are smaller. How do we do that without sort of reigniting the violence? And the Hatfield versus McCoy vibe that has been around in the Argentine ants and has been around  in humans' history. 

Jason Bradford  
Right.

Asher Miller  
I'm not sure we can give a good answer to that question. I don't know that there is a good answer that question. I mean, I think on some level, I think, well, hell. So we domesticated ourselves. Now maybe the next step is that we moderate ourselves. Like we have to figure out how to do that for ourselves in a way where we sort of embrace not only these natural limits, and we return ourselves back to a more grounded communities, place based communities living within ecological limits, but done in a way where there is still this coordination and communication and cooperation amongst these communities. You know, in the face of more scarcity, it takes us recognizing that what we actually have to do is to share and cooperate more.

Jason Bradford  
Mhm. Even with groups that are far flung from us.

Asher Miller  
Right.

Jason Bradford  
You know, which has always been hard for people to do until we've had all this international trade and all these inter-governmental agreements. We're having trouble, but we're trying a little bit. But how do we do that? 

Asher Miller  
And it's a lot of surplus 

Jason Bradford  
And a lot of surplus to do that. You can hop on planes, global communication systems, shipping containers, going back and forth interlocked financial systems. That's created the super organism that is killing us. But then, right. How do we retrench from that and maintain some sense of global community at the same time? Some sense of the other is not my enemy, the out group is still part of my in group in a larger sense. That's the conundrum we're in.

Rob Dietz  
Right. So the ideas is somehow to supercharge the self-moderation characteristic.

Asher Miller  
I think we need to get that Soviet guy to kind of do that with us.

Jason Bradford  
Come back. And he's dead. The woman is still working there. Or at least she was.

Asher Miller  
Well, let's get her to do it. Let's take a group of us and go up to Siberia. You know, figure out how to get this kind of population to self-moderate.

Rob Dietz  
I'm there as long as I get to meet Nikolai Volkoff.

Asher Miller  
Stay tuned for our George Costanza Memorial "Do the Opposite Segment" where we discuss things we could do to get the hell out of Crazy Town.

Rob Dietz  
Okay, Jason and Asher. I've got another awesome review to share from one of our listeners here in Crazy Town

Asher Miller  
My bruised ego lives for this moment.

Jason Bradford  
I need a little pick-me-up, too. It's like fan mail.

Rob Dietz  
This one comes to us from irritating1000. "Smart, sarcastic, funny. Want to laugh and cry at the same time. Have learned a lot, and even better have been moved to get off my butt and get actively involved." 

Asher Miller  
Actively involved by irritating people?

Rob Dietz  
Well, you know. I don't know what kind of activism - 

Asher Miller  
Everyone plays their part. 

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, that's right. Maybe we need some irritants in the system out there. Seriously, thank you for that very kind review. It really does make us feel good. And we hope it influences everyone else out there to go and rate and review us and maybe we'll get to yours on the air.

George  Costanza  
Every decision I've ever made in my entire life has been wrong. My life is the complete opposite of everything I want it to be.

Jerry Seinfeld  
If every instinct you have is wrong, then the opposite would have to be right.

Rob Dietz  
Okay, here on the self-domestication episode, we were trying to come up with a George Costanza appropriate "Do the Opposite" and we were just struggling

Asher Miller  
We failed. 

Rob Dietz  
Because, you know, we pointed out the conundrum. And we just don't have an answer to that. That's why it's a conundrum. It's not like a crossword puzzle here. It's a conundrum. So the best that we could do is instead of a "Do the Opposite," is more of a "Think the Opposite."

Asher Miller  
Yeah, and I would say so, "Think the Opposite." And that that would be for people who have been living with this sort of vision of progress in their mind. You know, they read Steve Pinker. Cooperation is going to continue, you know? Borders are going to be opened. There are no limits to our cooperation. 

Rob Dietz  
We'll be mining asteroids. . . 

Asher Miller  
 That think the opposite. Allow yourself to think the opposite. What happens if there's actually limits to doing that? And try to envision, what does that mean? What are the implications of that? And then on the flip side, for people who, who maybe are more aware, like many of you probably are, that there are limits to our ability to continue to be on the path that we've been on. Who can understandably fall into this sort of mindset that that means we're going to be resorting to living in small communities, competing for resources. It's sort of a fortress mentality, you know. Think the opposite and envision a possible future where that is not a viable path either.

Asher Miller  
Right. Where you're not fighting over the last can of beans with your overly testosterone-ied up neighbor. 

Asher Miller  
Exactly.

Jason Bradford  
So somewhere between "The Road" and "Star Trek." There's gotta be someiddle way.

Asher Miller  
Yeah. And it happens to be here still at planet Earth.

Rob Dietz  
Wow, I really read "The Road."The Cormac McCarthy book, recently. I don't know why. I found one of those neighborhood community libraries. You know? So there's there's some cooperation right there. 

Jason Bradford  
Was there like, tear precipitation all over the pages? 

Asher Miller  
What neight would to that to - Some kid, 13 year old kid walking by "Oooh here's a book!"

Rob Dietz  
It's one who's not thinking the opposite the way you are. He's thinking in that - the poor mentality.

Rob Dietz  
That's our show. Thanks for joining us in Crazy Town.

Asher Miller  
This is a program of Post Carbon Institute. Get mnore info at postcarbon.org.

Jason Bradford  
Hey, with all this stuff that's going on in the craziness in the world, you know. I'm really worried about reactive violence. This is something that was supposed to kind of be mostly winnowed out of us as we self-domesticated, but there's still little bits of it there and it can pop up in times of stress. 

Rob Dietz  
Oh, it's picking up hugely The other day I asked my wife to pass the salt and she punched me in the face.

Jason Bradford  
Exactly. Okay. There's story like this all over the place now

Asher Miller  
I punched you in the face just this morning.

Rob Dietz  
I just - I keep getting punched in the face. We got to solve this punch in the face.

Asher Miller  
We should put it in the positive feedback loops. You get punched once, everyone else wants to get punched.

Jason Bradford  
We have to break the cycle of reactive violence.

Rob Dietz  
It's such a punchable face. I gotta do something. I gotta like get some testosterone or something.

Jason Bradford  
No, no no no. That that goes the wrong direction. That's that's what's causing too much violence. 

Rob Dietz  
Right, right. Thanks for - so you got me back on track - so here at Crazy Town we're offering a new fundraiser. This is your chance to get in and buy something really useful. What we've done is we've sourced the best serotonin pills. We've packaged them up all nice, but we've labeled them as "Testosterone." 

Rob Dietz  
Oh, this is great. 

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, so you can give them to your aggro neighbors and they'll tell me - 

Asher Miller  
"Oh man up, here. Take this." 

Rob Dietz  
Yeah, and meanwhile, they'll be just domesticating into a blissful friend

Asher Miller  
Basically turn into a dog. You can rub their belly. 

Jason Bradford  
They're gonna be walking over saying "Hey, do you need any eggs, do you need any flower, do you need butter? You want to bake cookies?"

Rob Dietz  
 Oh, I'm so looking forward to not getting punched in the face anymore.

Jason Bradford  
Yeah, let's just eat chocolate chip cookies.